If All The Third Party Voters Had Voted For McCain, It Still Would Not Have Been Enou

[Backstop]

This may be controversial, but I'm OK with that.

My opinion is that we need to stop holding our noses, and voting for the lesser of 2 evils.

This nation needs a mid-course correction, and voting that way will not do it.

And it is pure BS that third party voters lost the 2008 election for the GOP.

This is the original thread I started from 2008: If All The Third Party Voters Had Voted For McCain, It Still Would Not Have Been Enough

And here are my current thoughts on the subject - this is basically a composite of some of my other posts:

So here is my contention: If every single person that did not vote for McCain or Obama had voted for McCain, it would not have given McCain enough votes to pass Obama.

The election numbers: http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/fe2008/2008presgeresults.pdf

The Popular vote numbers:

Obama: 69,456,897

McCain: 59,934,814

The difference: 9,522,083

Total number that voted for neither McCain or Obama: 1,860,617

McCain lost to Zero by 9.5 million popular votes.

In the Electoral College, McCain got 173 votes and Zero got 365; McCain lost by 192 votes.

Even if those 1,860,617 voters had voted for McCain, it would not have given him the 193 Electoral votes to pass Zero.

BTW, my numbers are exactly 5000 off this time as compared to my 2008 math: 1,865,617 vs. 1,860,617

I can't account for the difference; both times I used a Spreadsheet. I must've transcribed one number incorrectly.

[Backstop]

Forgot to add a link to the conversation here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1205815_index.html

Some Poster: People who would rather stand by their principles at the potential expense of handing Obama the keys for another 4 years, fail to understand the gravity of the situation the United States is currently in.

Backstop:

I'll just speak for myself here.

I understand the gravity much better than you imagine.

I understand it so well, it's imperative this country makes a substantial mid-course correction.

That's not a reflection of my principals; that's a reflection of the facts.

And holding my nose and voting isn't gonna cut it.

It's been pointed out and proved already:

1. The GOP nominates shit candidates; that's why they lost the election in 2008.

2. Third party voters didn't lose the 2008 election.

Go ahead and keep voting for the lesser of 2 evils.

And the GOP will keep nominating candidates that fit your voting style.

[American Patriot]

Democrats and Teaparty.

[Ryan Ruck]

And they will continue to nominate shit candidates, expecting GOP voters to vote for the lesser of two evils, and Barack Obama will be re-elected for a second term by a narrow enough margin that a 'night of the long knives' will occur at the RNC....Or Conservative voters will just defect to form a new party, causing the GOP to implode like the Whigs did before the Civil War. Still leaving us with basically a two-party system again.

I heard Hannity on his radio show yesterday (or maybe the day before) state that if lawmakers go along with McConnell's plan (or anything similar) on the debt issue it will be a bloodbath for Republicans and we'd likely see a rise of the Tea Party as more than just an ideology. I agree with that. The proof is right there in the 2010 election despite how much old guard Republicans want to ignore it.

[Toad]

The way the GOP is and who the power brokers within it are, I don't see it changing anytime soon.

We need to go through the very difficult and frustrating transition of forming a 3rd party. A true conservative party. It will take years to build up and get the message out. To aquire talent and experience in all aspects of running the party. But the goal is long term. A true conservative party from the inside out for the health and well being of the Nation. For the long term goal, we have to accept we will likely lose an election cycle before it pulls in enough support from disgruntled GOP and Independents to have a reasonable chance at changing the power structure of Washington.

[American Patriot]

Oh.. the GOP WILL change.

I'm still in it, and I will be one of the changers, if I have to fucking run for an office myself.

[Backstop]

Another though/post I made today:

Some Poster:
I understand your points completely, however, I don't think the U.S. can survive 2 terms of BHO....and I guess that's where you and I part ways.

Me:

We don't part ways here.

This nation absolutely can not survive another term of Barry O. and Company.

And I'm convinced we can't survive approximately another term of the recently elected crop from the GOP.

It's the same train headed for the cliff, just at different speeds.

You asked for a solution. Here's the long version:

I'm certainly no smarter than anyone else, but I have never seen anyone else comment on this component, and I don't understand why. I've been making this comment since mid-2008: I'm not yet convinced the majority of voters think this nation is headed in the wrong direction.

Look at what happened in the Primaries, Caucasus, etc.

You can go here http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/ click on a state, and see how they voted. There’s a ton of various election numbers at different pages on that site.

Basically, we’re left with crap nominations.

Apparently it’s what the people want, and that can’t be fixed.

So the reality is I don’t have a direct answer to your question.

But what I do know – and have proved to my satisfaction – is this:

1. Third party voters did not lose the election in 2008.

2. I will vote for the candidate that best represents me. If that is a non-GOP candidate, I will vote that way and my conscious will be clear.

3. It is absolutely necessary to turn this nation around, and the current crop from the GOP won’t do it.

4. At the end of the day – or the end of our nation – I will be able to look in the mirror and realize I voted for the best chance this nation has, rather than holding my nose and voting for the lesser of 2 evils.

Reality is, we part ways on the value of holding your nose and voting for the lesser of 2 evils vs. voting for the candidate one thinks is the best hope to turn this nation around.

[Backstop]

And they will continue to nominate shit candidates, expecting GOP voters to vote for the lesser of two evils, and Barack Obama will be re-elected for a second term by a narrow enough margin that a 'night of the long knives' will occur at the RNC....Or Conservative voters will just defect to form a new party, causing the GOP to implode like the Whigs did before the Civil War. Still leaving us with basically a two-party system again.

We absolutely need a new party to emerge.

Here's my logic:

1. Many folks vote for the GOP Nominee because they're stuck on that, "If I don't vote for the GOP it's a vote for the Dems."

That's factually wrong, and I've shown that.

2. I believe a true Conservative third party is viable. We just need to convince the folks in #1 that, and get them to vote accordingly.

3. And as always, I gotta factor this is: I'm not yet convinced the majority of voters think the nation is headed in the wrong direction.

If that truly is the case, then the Constitution functioned correctly, and the people got what they wanted. And aside from personal preferences, I can't ask for too much more than that.

4. Voting third party did not lose the election in 2008. It took me probably 4 hours of research and calculator time to figure that out.

But don't ever let anyone tell you different.

I've provided all the links you need to explore that, and more, in this thread.

[Backstop]

I heard Hannity on his radio show yesterday (or maybe the day before) state that if lawmakers go along with McConnell's plan (or anything similar) on the debt issue it will be a bloodbath for Republicans and we'd likely see a rise of the Tea Party as more than just an ideology. I agree with that. The proof is right there in the 2010 election despite how much old guard Republicans want to ignore it.

I'm glad Hannity said that - maybe it means I'm not alone here.

I'll say it again: if the GOP votes to go along with McConnell's plan, I WILL NOT vote GOP in 2012. There's probably a caveat in there somewhere, but I doubt the GOP will put up a true Conservative candidate.

The GOP could hold the line, and default the government if necessary.

They never hold the line; they always cave.

[Backstop]

The way the GOP is and who the power brokers within it are, I don't see it changing anytime soon.

We need to go through the very difficult and frustrating transition of forming a 3rd party. A true conservative party. It will take years to build up and get the message out. To aquire talent and experience in all aspects of running the party. But the goal is long term. A true conservative party from the inside out for the health and well being of the Nation. For the long term goal, we have to accept we will likely lose an election cycle before it pulls in enough support from disgruntled GOP and Independents to have a reasonable chance at changing the power structure of Washington.

I kinda agree with you, and kinda disagree.

We need a third party to form RFN.

If Barry O. and Co. get re-elected, I doubt this nation will survive...with the Constitution intact.

[Backstop]

Oh.. the GOP WILL change.

I'm still in it, and I will be one of the changers, if I have to fucking run for an office myself.

Run Rick Run!

And another thing...

If the GOP goes along with McConnell's plan, I'm changing my ticket.

I'll drop the GOP, and probably go Independent.

I've had it with them.

They need to shape up, or I'm shipping out.

It may not be a big message, but it's all it have.

[Toad]

I'm already Independent. I have no automatic loyalty anymore to the GOP with the level of bullshittery that's been going on.

[Backstop]

Gotta admit it.

I was a "third party vote is a vote for the Dems" person for a long time.

Took me until after the 2008 Presidential elections, and doing the research, to discover that I was wrong.

[American Patriot]

Backstop... I'd ask you to do one more piece of discovery in this case.

Go back and look up Ross Perot and what happened to GHW Bush.

Bush lost due to Perot and all the middle men voting for him instead of Bush.

I can't prove it because I don't have the numbers handy, but I recall them going through the numbers. Had Perot not been running and there was the Clinton vs Bush (two parties) then he would have made it a second term and Wet Willie wouldn't have gotten in at all.

[Backstop]

I'll look for those numbers, Rick.

It'll take a while to compile an answer once I find them all.

I gotta check the Popular vote numbers, then see how many Electoral votes each state had at the time (? has it changed), the find how the Electoral actually voted, etc.

It's time consuming, but I'll try.

[American Patriot]

Well, I wasn't giving you homework, Backstop. Merely suggesting that while Obama may INDEED have won hands down the last election this has not always been the case, and I still say that since this country IS a two party system we need to put the BEST MAN/WOMAN up for election - not the "least of two evils".

The fact is, if the GOP did this, and pushed the best Tea Party supporter, we'd have a winning ticket, and the GOP would get back to grassroots, and conservatism....

[Backstop]

Well, I wasn't giving you homework, Backstop.

No problem.

Actually, just between us on this Board, I've been waiting for someone on AR 15 dot com to bring up some points to challenge me, and yours is one Rick.

Although I hadn't yet done any research.

So...with further ado:

http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/national.php?f=0&year=1996

1996 Popular Vote:

Clinton: 47, 400, 125

Dole: 39,198,755

Perot: 8,085,402

Electoral Vote:

Clinton: 379

Dole: 159

Perot: 0

Yep; in 1996 the third party voters did not lost the election for the GOP.

Here’s the Primary Results for 1996 if anyone is interested: http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/fe1996/presprim.htm

[Ryan Ruck]

I'm not 100% ready to say that a 3rd party is the answer right now, especially after the trouncing liberal Republicans and Democrats got in the recent election. I think that sent a message that was received loud and clear by many, though clearly not all, elected officials. I think there is still a chance to salvage the GOP.

[Backstop]

I think there is still a chance to salvage the GOP.

I have to agree there most definately is a possilibity.

Although I think it's a slim one.

But...I refuse to vote the lesser of 2 evils ever again.

Man, wouldn't it be grand for a real Conservative to make it via the GOP?

[American Patriot]

No problem.

Actually, just between us on this Board, I've been waiting for someone on AR 15 dot com to bring up some points to challenge me, and yours is one Rick.

Although I hadn't yet done any research.

So...with further ado:




Yep; in 1996 the third party voters did not lost the election for the GOP.

Here’s the Primary Results for 1996 if anyone is interested: http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/fe1996/presprim.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...election,_1992

1988 ←

November 3, 1992

→ 1996

Nominee	Bill Clinton	George H. W. Bush	Ross Perot
Party	Democratic	Republican	Independent
Home state	Arkansas	Texas	Texas
Running mate	Al Gore	Dan Quayle	James Stockdale
Electoral vote	370	168	0
States carried	32 + DC	18	0
Popular vote	44,909,806	39,104,550	19,743,821
Percentage	43.0%	37.5%	18.9%