What Would It Take?

[Backstop]

So, my opinion is that all this talk about Tax Code changes by Cain (9-0-9) and Perry (20% Flat) and talk by Paul (dismantle the ATF) is moot.

I say that because there’s no way in hell both Houses are gonna allow that.

But that got me to thinking: Exactly what would be required to do those things?

Would it actually require the approval votes of both Houses?

Will be doing my own research later.

[Luke]

I am fairly sure it would require Constitutional Amendments. From my house it appears to be only an attempt to gain face time, a soundbite generator if you will.

[Backstop]

I'm thinking the same.

Again, I can't see TPTB allowing all that money and control to slip through their hands.

[American Patriot]

A tax proposal, as in 9-9-9 or whatever you wanna call it will still require a bill to be introduced.

The President can't make or mandate law. Especially "tax law". Of course - the IRS is a "service"....

I stole this from "answers.com" since I couldn't remember the precise history, but this is pretty much what I recall from college level courses in Business.

The roots go back to the Civil War in 1862 when Congress created the position of commissioner of the Internal Revenue and enacted an income tax to pay for the war. The income tax was repealed 10 years later, but was started again in 1894. The Supreme Court ruled it was unconstitutional the following year.

In 1913 Wyoming ratified the 16th amendment. The 16th amendment gave congress the authority to enact an income tax. That same year the first 1040 form appeared and a 1% net tax on personal incomes above 3,000 with a 6% surtax on incomes of 500, 000.
In 1918 during WW1 the top rate of income tax rose to 77% to help pay for the war. It dropped after the war to 24% in 1929, but rose again in the depression. In WW2 Congress introduced payroll withholding and quarterly tax payments.
In the 1950's the name was changed to the IRS.

Basically from this you can see that Congress has both created "income taxes" and REPEALED it at least once. There's NO reason they can't repeal the current law requiring income taxes. The actual RULES the IRS goes by will be thrown into the trash since they aren't LAWS they are RULEs and enforceable only through the congressional act to create the IRS in the first place.

Thus... the laws creating the IRS and it's rules has to be repealed and a new law put in place to take effect immediately upon closing down the IRS.

I'm not sure that this would happen EASILY in our current society because too many people seem dependent upon taking money out of the pockets of "the rich" (those who are working....).

Apparently (from what I can gather quickly here) Bureaus, Agencies, Services and so forth are "created" by Congressional Law rather than Presidential decree (Executive Order).

Essentially, a Presidential executive order may be used to assist other government heads to do their duties, or to help along a particular law - and they do carry the full force of law. However, they have, over time been challenged and questioned as to whether they are within the intent of the Constitution and a vague phrase called "Executive Powers".

In truth, an Executive power is about anything a President wants it to be until he is questioned.

By the way, some wars were fought BASED on EOs - however, those EOs (Bill Clinton, Kosovo) were based on Congressional resolutions....

So, that all said - None of the current Candidates, or even the President HIMSELF can issue a proclamation - I'm sorry, I mean "Executive Order" closing an agency directly. The foundation upon which the Agency was created must be knocked down first.

The IRS has to be disbanded (with this I agree) but to do so will require, unfortunately, an act of Congress.

[Backstop]

So Rick, I'm thinking your short answer is, "It ain't gonna happen."

[American Patriot]

No...

I think it is one of those things that MIGHT happen if the conditions are right.

The "conditions" would be that (assuming Cain for instance gets in office) he'd have to:

1) Press Congress to make the change
2) Congress would want to make the change
3) The Change Might Happen.

Oh, and then the other condition would be the condition of Congress.

Do we, as Conservatives have not only the White House, but the Senate AND House as well?

So... the short answer is "It Depends" (on a lot we can't control easily).

[Backstop]

Even with the right conditions, it won't happen.

I think even if we controlled both Houses, the 9-0-9 and the Flat Tax would still have little chance of passing.

As far as Paul's dismantling the ATF - not a chance in hell.

The only chance for major overhaul I see is if we boot almost every sitting elected official, and install ones that are for one of those plans and could not be corrupted by lobbyists.

And I'm not sure there are enough of those on the planet.

I think the laws we have, are the laws we're stuck with.

Yeah...there may be some pendulum swings back to the right a bit, but I don't see a major overhaul happening.

Major overhaul = Tax Code re-do, Ban the Fed (all encompassing), etc.

Just watch...time will tell.

I'd enjoy being wrong though.

[Ryan Ruck]

I think it could happen.

Could if the President had both the House and Senate with an R majority and if the President had the gumption to use their bully pulpit to push it through.

You know, kind of like the antithesis of what happened with Obama-care.

[Backstop]

I think it could happen.

Could if the President had both the House and Senate with an R majority and if the President had the gumption to use their bully pulpit to push it through.

You know, kind of like the antithesis of what happened with Obama-care.

I semi-with you there Ryan.

But I'm almost convinced there are not enough politicians in existence that would make those changes.

Then, as I've said so many times, I'm not yet convinced the majority of voters in this nation think we're headed in the wrong direction.

I believe we have a perfect system of government - or almost perfect.

But it's been so corrupted, abused, misused, etc.

As always, I hope I'm wrong.

[American Patriot]

I agree with both of you, to a degree.

It COULD happen, probably WON'T but if the RIGHT conditions were there it WOULD for sure.

See the "conditions" include the American public being ready for it, Congress being owned by Conservatives, the White House OWNED by true Conservatives (Not RINOs)... and even with an "independent" Libertarian like Ron Paul, SOME things likely WOULD happen - IF the Congress would go along.

But... it's easier to MAKE a law to than to get rid of one.

This has to be like "Prohibition" - and there have to be enough people pissed off enough to make prohibition (Obamacare, ATF, IRS etc) go AWAY.

[Ryan Ruck]

But I'm almost convinced there are not enough politicians in existence that would make those changes.

Which is a big reason of why I'm supporting Herman Cain. A non-politician, businessman like Cain has the most motivation to push for such a tax overhaul.

And if you've got an R POTUS putting pressure on an R Senate and House, Congress would look pretty foolish countermanding a President of the same party.

[American Patriot]

Which is a big reason of why I'm supporting Herman Cain. A non-politician, businessman like Cain has the most motivation to push for such a tax overhaul.

And if you've got an R POTUS putting pressure on an R Senate and House, Congress would look pretty foolish countermanding a President of the same party.

Prec-xactly-isely!

[Malsua]

Something has to give. We need to rout the bullshit out of Washington one way or another.

[American Patriot]

Thats what we need.. a "Router Party" lol

[Backstop]

HAHA! A Router Party.

I like it.

Anyone remember when Perot said something along the lines of, "this country needs to be run like a business"?

[American Patriot]

HAHA! A Router Party.

I like it.

Anyone remember when Perot said something along the lines of, "this country needs to be run like a business"?

Yeah, I remember that. He was right. Right idea, wrong time and wrong place to run - ruined America for us. If he'd have stayed out of it, the winner would have been Bush.