Scenarios of a nuclear war

[Sean Osborne]

Most interesting. Down near the bottom of those verses is a gem which I believe may be further evidence of the so-called "rapture" of the elect just prior to the great tribulations:

"Hear, my elect," says the Lord. "Behold, the days of tribulation are at hand, and I will deliver you from them.

[SAdams]

I want to apologize to the forum members here if I started anything inappropriate. My request was for Honza to email me or PM me so as not to hijack this thread from its original intent.

In retrospect, I should have just PMed Honza with the request instead of posting it publically.

I will say, however, that the following discussion I found to be very interesting and I am glad that Sean responded as well to give his perspective.

Since this is now in the religion forum I hope that it is ok for me to continue...

Anyway, I am a Christian. My beliefs are pretty much in line with what Sean says.

I grew up attending mostly Evangelical Free churches with my parents when I was young, and I currently attend one now. I do not consider myself a Protestant, Catholic, but a Christian.

That being said, although I asked Christ into my heart many years ago, I have "put God in a box" so to speak most of my life, and only in recent years have decided I was not living according to His will. Because of that I admit that my knowledge of scripture is not what it should be. This is something that I must work at and begin much more in depth study.

I was most impressed recently, and humbled, when a man came to visit our church who literally knew the entire new testament by heart. He recited the entire book of John word for word in a two hour session right in front of us, with no notes or help. Pretty amazing, and this showed how lacking I was in my devotions.

Anyway, my purpose for asking Honza my question was not to start arguments and tension on the board. I was genuinely interested in why he believed as he did. I guess I'm sort of like a sponge, hungry to soak up as much info as I can and then process it and determine how I can grow even closer to The Lord.

What I wonder is if often times the arguments come from a problem in labeling. Honza labels himself as a "Traditional Catholic" and I label myself as...well, just a Christian. But sometimes what a label says and what something actually is are two different things. This is what I was trying to determine.

In any case. Once again I apologize for derailing this thread from its intent. Hopefully I haven't already ruined my welcome to the board.

I will say that one thing I absolutely do agree with all of you is that I hate communism and your assessments about world events are very much in line with my beliefs.

[Sean Osborne]

Sam

I want you to know that nothing you posted has caused any detrimental effect to the thread or the forum. In fact, your contribution has been quite to the contrary as well as exemplary. it is my opinion that your question to Honza was spot-on correct in light of the preceding comments which precipitated your question.

I am here to help any way I am able in your return to your devotions. Any questions you have in this regard can be posted in the thread "Current Events and Biblical Prophecy II", where I have just responded this morning to a question from Bastastic concerning the "last days" events.

[Ryan Ruck]

SAdams,
No big deal! That's what our community is here for!

Discussion and debate (where appropriate) of ideas. That's why we have so many other forums than our primary ones that deal with so many varied topics.

[SAdams]

Thanks guys. Glad to hear my involvement wasn't out of line.

I look forward to participating more on this site, although most of you seem to know far more than I do about the events going on in the world, so mostly I just read what you guys have to say.

Sean, I appreciate your offer to help with devotions. I plan on reading through the "Current Events and Biblical Prophecy II" thread and if I have any questions I'll be sure to post them there. Thanks!

[samizdat]

I'd like to mention that God's thoughs are far above our's, as far as heaven is from the earth.

[Sean Osborne]

I'd like to mention that God's thoughs are far above our's, as far as heaven is from the earth.

Not His thoughts samizdat, but His intellect.

Since God is everywhere (omnipresent), and Heaven is where He dwells.. then Heaven is everywhere as well.

Men have a bad habit of applying human conditions and limitations upon an omnipotent God.

[Aplomb]

Catholics do not believe in faith alone for salvation nor do we believe in Scripture alone in order to understand and practice our faith. There is also reason to believe that the rapture is not something that is going to happen. There are books on these subjects that are available at Catholic book stores. A wealth of information on Catholicism including the subject matter in this thread are found here:
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/audio.htm has discussions that you can listen to from EWTN's The Journey Home, including Paul Thigpen author of "The Rapture Trap". I want to point out that Scott Hahn, listed there is a former Protestant theologian who is now a Catholic apologist.
http://www.catholic.com/radio/calendar.php is a good place to find Catholic Answers that you can listen to.
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/ Dave Armstrong's blog; he is a former Protestant apologist and historian who has written several books and been published in Catholic sources. He has also been honored to have been able to write the informative inserts in "The New Catholic Answer Bible". He is an old and a good friend of mine, by the way.
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ345.HTM A list with links to all of Dave's papers
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ24.HTM is a link for excellent works by Catholic apologists
http://www.wdeo.org/ Ave Maria Radio which also features Al Kresta, who I know personally, who is the former Pastor of a non-denominational Christian church that I attended, and present Catholic radio talk show host.

[samizdat]

You're right Sean. I try to look upon all with the mind of Christ and experience the reign of God like a little child. Incidentally, I'm rather glad neither you ,aplomb nor Ryan encouraged reconciliatory remarks etc. I was ready and able to defend you and even 80% of what Honza was trying to articlate, explaining the mistakes and the good stuff. It's all about a war of words. True religion is widows, orphans and keeping unstained from this corrupt world. Paul counseled us to run from this sort of provocation and bickering about words. Peter and Paul settled disputes rather sensibly- fornication-no, idolatry no, eating food sacrificed to idols-no. Circumcision-who cares.

I don't read or think much about the eschatological stuff- but your take is the most moderate, accurate and reasonable I've seen. I read Esdras from time to time for a different reason, but I couldn't help getting distracted with the beast and wings- which represent rulers- 12 I believe. Could that be Russia, or the Soviets?

Isaias 55
6 Seek ye the Lord, while he may be found: call upon him, while he is near. 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unjust man his thoughts, and let him return to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God: for he is bountiful to forgive. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts. 10 And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it. 12 For you shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall sing praise before yen, and all the trees of the country shall clap their hands. 13 Instead of the shrub, shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the nettle, shall come up the myrtle tree: and the Lord shall be named for an everlasting sign, that shall not be taken away.

[Sean Osborne]

Catholics do not believe in faith alone for salvation nor do we believe in Scripture alone in order to understand and practice our faith. There is also reason to believe that the rapture is not something that is going to happen. There are books on these subjects that are available at Catholic book stores. A wealth of information on Catholicism including the subject matter in this thread are found here:
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/audio.htm has discussions that you can listen to from EWTN's The Journey Home, including Paul Thigpen author of "The Rapture Trap". I want to point out that Scott Hahn, listed there is a former Protestant theologian who is now a Catholic apologist.
http://www.catholic.com/radio/calendar.php is a good place to find Catholic Answers that you can listen to.
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/ Dave Armstrong's blog; he is a former Protestant apologist and historian who has written several books and been published in Catholic sources. He has also been honored to have been able to write the informative inserts in "The New Catholic Answer Bible". He is an old and a good friend of mine, by the way.
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ345.HTM A list with links to all of Dave's papers
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ24.HTM is a link for excellent works by Catholic apologists
http://www.wdeo.org/ Ave Maria Radio which also features Al Kresta, who I know personally, who is the former Pastor of a non-denominational Christian church that I attended, and present Catholic radio talk show host.

The point is that when the "Rapture" occurs all of these OPINIONS will be a moot point, irrelevant, and in sum total incorrect and false church-driven doctrine incorrectly foisted upon devout believers. This is no ones problem except for those ignorants who proliferate such non-Biblical nonsense.

[Aplomb]

Again, just because something isn't right out of the Bible doesn't make it nonsense. Nor are those ignorants who understand that even the Bible itself states that Old Testament Jews did not believe in Sola Scriptura. The Bible also clearly shows the necessity of interpretation. From my buddy, Dave: http://web.archive.org/web/200402160...mus/RAZ406.HTM

To give two examples from the Old Testament itself:

A) Ezra 7:6,10: Ezra, a priest and scribe, studied the Jewish law and taught it to Israel, and his authority was binding, under pain of imprisonment, banishment, loss of goods, and even death (7:25-26).
B) Nehemiah 8:1-8: Ezra reads the law of Moses to the people in Jerusalem (8:3). In 8:7 we find thirteen Levites who assisted Ezra, and who helped the people to understand the law. Much earlier, we find Levites exercising the same function (2 Chronicles 17:8-9). In Nehemiah 8:8: . . . they read from the book, from the law of God, clearly, and they gave the sense, so that the people understood the reading.

So the people did indeed understand the law (Neh 8:12), but not without much assistance -- not merely upon hearing. Likewise, the Bible is not altogether clear in and of itself, but requires the aid of teachers who are more familiar with biblical styles and Hebrew idiom, background, context, exegesis and cross-reference, hermeneutical principles, original languages, etc. The Old Testament, then, teaches about a binding Tradition and need for authoritative interpreters, as does the New Testament:

C) And behold, an Ethiopian, a eunuch . . . seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah . . . So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?" And he said, "How can I, unless some one guides me?"
(Acts 8:27-28, 30-31)

D) . . . no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation.
(2 Peter 1:20)

E) . . . So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him . . . There are some things in them [Paul's letters] hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
(2 Peter 3:15-16)

F) With many such parables he spoke the word to them, as they were able to hear it; he did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything. (Mark 4:33-34)

[Sean Osborne]

Again, just because something isn't right out of the Bible doesn't make it nonsense.

Well if the subject concerns things of God anything non-Biblical on such issues makes for a potential man-made construct and thus highly suspect in not fallible human gobbledeegook.

The Bible is the Word of God. The word of men is not.

Nor are those ignorants who understand that even the Bible itself states that Old Testament Jews did not believe in Sola Scriptura.

Who cares? I certainly don't care who believed or didn't believe. That's their problem, not mine or anyone elses. It's moot and an irrelevant non-issue.

The Bible also clearly shows the necessity of interpretation.

God does not need or require the assistance of men to interpret His Word.
The Bible interprets ITSELF. Period.

[Aplomb]

A) Ezra 7:6,10: Ezra, a priest and scribe, studied the Jewish law and taught it to Israel, and his authority was binding, under pain of imprisonment, banishment, loss of goods, and even death (7:25-26).

Ezra's authority was binding. The Bible does not teach Sola Scriptura. But it does teach correct interpretation and authority. This is the way Catholics believe and this is Biblically based understanding. You don't have to beieve that, Sean, but it doesn't change any facts. And this is the reason that Honza writes from a recorded historical text that you call gobbledeegook.

B) Nehemiah 8:1-8: Ezra reads the law of Moses to the people in Jerusalem (8:3). In 8:7 we find thirteen Levites who assisted Ezra, and who helped the people to understand the law. Much earlier, we find Levites exercising the same function (2 Chronicles 17:8-9). In Nehemiah 8:8: . . . they read from the book, from the law of God, clearly, and they gave the sense, so that the people understood the reading.

God doesn't need his word explained, but WE do. Otherwise, what happens is exactly as the New Testament Scriptures above state with individuals who interpret the Bible for themselves. And to put that into terms using your own words it leads to "a potential man-made construct and thus highly suspect in not fallible human gobbledeegook."

It's a difference of basis for belief in the scenarios that we are discussing. And both your perspective and Honza's come from interpretatin of The Word of God. To say that Honza's religious writing is non-Biblical is merely your opinion.

I'm looking forward to reading futher chapters or scenarios posted soon.

[Sean Osborne]

And this is the reason that Honza writes from a recorded historical text that you call gobbledeegook.

I stated nothing about Honza or recorded historical text being gobbledeegook. What I stated in quite plain english was that "... if the subject concerns things of God anything non-Biblical on such issues makes for a potential man-made construct and thus highly suspect if not fallible human gobbledeegook. Your assumptions are in error as my point was referenced to the most gerneral of terms. There's a lot of non-Biblical stuff out there - and I treat it all the same - round file.

Sound Biblical exegesis is one thing and is usually composed by a well studied believer.

Again, the only point of contention was and remains Honza's insistence the an individual does not truly acquire salvation unless he/she becomes a practicing Catholic. That is wrong, incorrect and non-Biblical when he wrote it and when reiterated it always will be wrong, incorrect non-Biblical rubbish in the future. Such a view is forevermore non-supportable, un-defendable nonsense.

[Aplomb]

Originally posted by Sean:
Again, the only point of contention was and remains Honza's insistence the an individual does not truly acquire salvation unless he/she becomes a practicing Catholic.

That isn't true at all. Your contention is with Catholic beliefs as you demonstrated on Anomalies threads and here in this thread. Your own words say so -- for example when I provided the list of excellent sources of Catholic apologists...

The point is that when the "Rapture" occurs all of these OPINIONS will be a moot point, irrelevant, and in sum total incorrect and false church-driven doctrine incorrectly foisted upon devout believers. This is no ones problem except for those ignorants who proliferate such non-Biblical nonsense.

Without even reading what they wrote or hearing what they've said you state your assessment of what they explain and assume that if Catholics have said anything, then it isn't Biblical.

if the subject concerns things of God anything non-Biblical on such issues makes for a potential man-made construct and thus highly suspect in not fallible human gobbledeegook.

And I will reiterate that from the Catholic perspective, because the Bible shows us that the Scriptures teach authority and correct interpretation of the Word of God, and NOT Sola Scriptura; if you are calling that gobbledeegook, then you are taking that right down to the very basis for these beliefs, which is the Bible. In supporting my position using verses in the Word, you stated, "I don't care." Look at the verse again. The priest had the correct understanding and the authority to teach the Word, such authority binding even unto death. If there was just one verse stating this somewhere in the Bible, I would probably agree with you that The Word is the final authority that doesn't need to be interpreted except with personal assistance of The Holy Spirit. But in fact there are verses in both the Old and in the New Testaments pointing out the same thing.

Sound Biblical exegesis is one thing and is usually composed by a well studied believer.

That's exactly why I posted those links -- for those readers here with questions to be referred to those Catholic apologists who are well studied in such matters and have scholarly backgrounds that I can only hope to one day know a good portion of the truths that they hold dear because of the dedication they have to God and in their searching for the truth in matters of faith, and diligent lifelong study which led them to the Catholic Church.

[Sean Osborne]

Originally posted by Sean:
Again, the only point of contention was and remains Honza's insistence that [Christian] individual does not truly acquire salvation unless he/she becomes a practicing Catholic.

That isn't true at all.

Are you daring to call me a liar?

Obviously you missed my points regarding Honza's posts the first time I posted them. I will restate them yet again so that you will not make such a silly accusatory mistake again.

My issue with what [Honza] posted in this thread is specifically when [he] states that individuals are not covered by the Blood of Christ and thus the forgiveness of sin because they are not "Catholic".


Quote:

Originally posted by Honza Malina:

The only safety for your soul is in becoming traditional Catholic, praying Rosary and protecting your immortal soul from being destroyed by these servants of the devil.

...the only religion correctly interpretting the Holy Scripture is the Catholic Church

...Protestants [equal] man-made religions... to save these poor souls before they perish

...One day people who are not Catholics may find it useful, when perhaps they realize their errors of life, get Baptised to the Catholic Faith ... and that way all their sins will be wiped out at that moment.

Aplomb, if the above is not loud and clear enough for you I will turn up the volume even more.

Honza has matter of factly stated that believers in Jesus Christ, - protestant believers to be exact - are sinners still in deed of redemption.

If you agree with this then YOU have a very serious problem.

[Aplomb]

My dear Brother Sean, I don't miss much.

But let's pray and prepare...

[American Patriot]

Three words.

Knock it OFF.

[Sean Osborne]

Three words.

Knock it OFF.

Exactly MY POINT of several days ago and ignored to date:

I strongly suggest we leave this specific issue right here and move on with the purpose of this thread topic.

Any further nonsense and I am out of here. Period.

[Aplomb]

No worries, Rick. I'd just finished defending the Catholic position, and rather politely I might add, though a bit of sarcasm was thrown in for entertainment value.

Sometime after things calm down in the middle east and real world news isn't top priority, I'd be very happy to co-guest w/ Sean on one of your podcasts discussing religious differences such as we exchanged here. It would be fun, educational, and not lacking in an attentive audience.