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Thread: Fire couldn't have brought down the WTC

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    Creepy Ass Cracka & Site Owner Ryan Ruck's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Fire couldn't have brought down the WTC

    And people wonder why many think that the public school system is an utter failure…

    Can a jet fuel/hydrocarbon fire collapse a steel structure? An experiment.

    An experiment?!?! An experiment implies scientific method, accuracy, a higher than double digit IQ, etc. This should be called a "Hold my beer bowl and watch this!" moment.

    Even the guys and gals at MythBusters, despite their flaws every now and then make an effort to carry out their experiments with some degree of accuracy!

    The point is that it is not so easy to weaken steel with a hydrocarbon fire.
    What… A… Fucking… Idiot…



    So I guess I was just imagining my MAPP torch causing steel to become red hot, more soft and, able to be worked easily. And, I guess all those medieval blacksmiths that used coal to fire their forges were just making things up too.

    (And no, he didn't limit his statement to a jet fuel fuelled fire, he said "hydrocarbon fire". If he meant jet fuel, he should have said it. And, even if he had said it, he would still be absurdly wrong.)

    Remember, this "person" is allowed to procreate and vote.

    My… God… Help us…

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    Super Moderator Aplomb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire couldn't have brought down the WTC

    lol Ryan!

    So I asked my 8-yr old son if I built a tall building out of playing cards and then stood back several feet and shot a rubber band at the bottom of it and it hit at the base of the model, what have I proved. He said that the cards would all fall down and that it would prove that the twin towers had fallen because of getting hit by planes. I asked if he was really sure that this had proved it so, and he insisted that it had.

    But then I asked how I might improve my experiment. His reply was that I should use a little airplane instead of a rubber band and that better aim would be achieved if I used a remote control airplane. He also said that bricks would be better than cards. Hmmm. I think he's onto something.

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    Creepy Ass Cracka & Site Owner Ryan Ruck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire couldn't have brought down the WTC

    Looks like ARFCOM is turning science!

    In the spirit of DU, I present: BULLETS CANNOT KILL

    LOOOL!

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    Member Bastastic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire couldn't have brought down the WTC

    The point is that it is not so easy to weaken steel with a hydrocarbon fire.


    My head hurts...
    Where am I going and why am I in this handbasket???

    The only difference between martyrdom and suicide is the press coverage.

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    Default Re: Fire couldn't have brought down the WTC

    A third of U.S. public believes 9/11 conspiracy theory
    Knoxville News ^ | August 1 2006 | THOMAS HARGROVE and GUIDO H. STEMPEL III


    More than a third of the American public suspects that federal officials assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them so the United States could go to war in the Middle East, according to a new Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll.


    The national survey of 1,010 adults also found that anger against the federal government is at record levels, with 54 percent saying they "personally are more angry" at the government than they used to be.
    Suspicions that the 9/11 attacks were "an inside job" - the common phrase used by conspiracy theorists on the Internet - quickly have become nearly as popular as decades-old conspiracy theories that the federal government was responsible for President John F. Kennedy's assassination and that it has covered up proof of space aliens.


    Thirty-six percent of respondents overall said it is "very likely" or "somewhat likely" that federal officials either participated in the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon or took no action to stop them "because they wanted the United States to go to war in the Middle East."
    "One out of three sounds high, but that may very well be right," said Lee Hamilton, former vice chairman of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States (also called the 9/11 commission.)
    "A lot of people I've encountered believe the U.S. government was involved," Hamilton said. "Many say the government planned the whole thing.


    The poll found that a majority of young adults give at least some credence to a 9/11 conspiracy compared to less than a fourth of people 65 or older. Members of racial and ethnic minorities, people with only a high school education and Democrats were especially likely to suspect federal involvement in 9/11.


    (Excerpt) Read more at knoxnews.com ...
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    Default Re: Fire couldn't have brought down the WTC

    Speaking of weakened steel....

    Most steel has other metals added to tune its properties, like strength, corrosion resistance, or ease of fabrication. Steel is just the element iron that has been processed to control the amount of carbon. Iron, out of the ground, melts at around 1510 degrees C (2750°F). Steel often melts at around 1370 degrees C (2500°F).


    26
    Fe
    Iron
    55.845

    Iron

    Atomic Number:
    26

    Atomic Weight:
    55.845

    Melting Point:
    1811 K (1538°C or 2800°F)

    Boiling Point:
    3134 K (2861°C or 5182°F)

    Density:
    7.874 grams per cubic centimeter

    Phase at Room Temperature:
    Solid

    Element Classification:
    Metal

    Period Number:
    4
    Group Number:
    8
    Group Name:
    none

    What's in a name?
    From the Anglo-Saxon word iron. Iron's chemical symbol comes from the Latin word for iron, ferrum.

    Say what?
    Iron is pronounced as EYE-ern.

    History and Uses:
    Archaeological evidence suggests that people have been using iron for at least 5000 years. Iron is the cheapest and one of the most abundant of all metals, comprising nearly 5.6% of the earth's crust and nearly all of the earth's core. Iron is primarily obtained from the minerals hematite (Fe2O3) and magnetite (Fe3O4). The minerals taconite, limonite (FeO(OH)·nH2O) and siderite (FeCO3) are other important sources.
    Huge amounts of iron are used to make steel, an alloy of iron and carbon. Steel typically contains between 0.3% and 1.5% carbon, depending on the desired characteristics. The addition of other elements can give steel other useful properties. Small amounts of chromium improves durability and prevents rust (stainless steel); nickel increases durability and resistance to heat and acids; manganese increases strength and resistance to wear; molybdenum increases strength and resistance to heat; tungsten retains hardness at high temperatures; and vanadium increases strength and springiness. Steel is used to make paper clips, skyscrapers and everything in between.
    In addition to helping build the world around us, iron helps keep plants and animals alive. Iron plays a role in the creation of chlorophyll in plants and is an essential part of hemoglobin, the substance that carries oxygen within red blood cells. Iron sulfate (FeSO4) is used to treat the blood disease anemia.

    Estimated Crustal Abundance:
    5.63×104 milligrams per kilogram

    Estimated Oceanic Abundance:
    2×10-3 milligrams per liter

    Number of Stable Isotopes:
    3
    (View all isotope data)

    Ionization Energy:
    7.902 eV

    Oxidation States:
    +3, +2

    Electron Shell Configuration:
    1s2






    2s2
    2p6




    3s2
    3p6
    3d6


    4s2





    http://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele026.html

    =======================================

    Ok... that's just a few facts. Nothing more.

    Now, the World Trade Center was actually very big (I've been on top of the tower that had the antenna, on the roof. The whole building swayed a couple of feet in the wind).

    There were literally millions of pounds... make that 10s of thousands of tons of material being held up.

    There is ONE thing that these "There was no way the planes took the buildings down" fools keep forgetting.

    It's called GRAVITY.
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    Super Moderator Malsua's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire couldn't have brought down the WTC

    Here is the absolute must read about the towers. It's from a company called PROTEC who does demolition and was there on 9/11. It simply shreds all the controlled demolition nonsense.

    http://xbehome.com/screwloosechange/...ard_8-8-06.pdf

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    Default Re: Fire couldn't have brought down the WTC

    Libertatem Prius!


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    Super Moderator Malsua's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire couldn't have brought down the WTC

    LOL, Rick, you had that up all day? ROFL, I was blog bouncing (you know, one leads to another and another) and 10 sites down the line from where I started before i found that one. It was under my nose the whole time? hehe.

    -Mal

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    Default Re: Fire couldn't have brought down the WTC

    lol

    honesstly no, I stole it from you lol
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    Forum General Brian Baldwin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire couldn't have brought down the WTC

    These must be the dumbest people I have ever witnessed. As a one time civil engineer I know better than that. I don't need to conduct experiments either. Stresses and mathematical algorythyms are proof enough about what heat will do to steel beam high rise buildings.
    Brian Baldwin

    Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil.... For I am the meanest S.O.B. in the valley.


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    Creepy Ass Cracka & Site Owner Ryan Ruck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire couldn't have brought down the WTC

    Scientists And Engineers Simulate Jet Colliding With World Trade Center
    WEST LAFAYETTE, Ind. — Researchers at Purdue University have created a simulation that uses scientific principles to study in detail what likely happened when a commercial airliner crashed into the World Trade Center's North Tower on Sept. 11, 2001.

    The simulation could be used to better understand which elements in the building's structural core were affected, how they responded to the initial shock of the aircraft collision, and how the tower later collapsed from the ensuing fire fed by an estimated 10,000 gallons of jet fuel, said Mete Sozen, the Kettelhut Distinguished Professor of Structural Engineering in Purdue's School of Civil Engineering.

    It took about 80 hours using a high-performance computer containing 16 processors to produce the first simulation, which depicts how the plane tore through several stories of the structure within a half-second, said Christoph M. Hoffmann, a professor of computer science and co-director of the Computing Research Institute at Purdue.

    "This required a tremendous amount of detailed work," Hoffmann said. "We have finished the first part of the simulation showing what happened to the structure during the initial impact. In the coming months, we will explore how the structure reacted to the extreme heat from the blaze that led to the building's collapse, and we will refine the visual presentations of the simulation."

    The researchers are analyzing how many columns were destroyed initially in the building's core, a spine of 47 heavy steel I-beams extending through the center of the structure, Sozen said.

    "Current findings from the simulation have identified the destruction of 11 columns on the 94th floor, 10 columns on the 95th floor and nine columns on the 96th floor," he said. "This is a major insight. When you lose close to 25 percent of your columns at a given level, the building is significantly weakened and vulnerable to collapse."

    The simulation research, funded by the National Science Foundation, was carried out by a team that includes Hoffmann; Sozen; Ayhan Irfanoglu, an assistant professor of civil engineering; Voicu Popescu, an assistant professor of computer science; computer science doctoral student Paul Rosen; and civil engineering doctoral students Oscar Ardila and Ingo Brachmann.

    The simulation research is associated with an NSF "information technology research project" called Model Reduction for Dynamical Systems, which is led by Purdue and includes researchers from Rice University, Florida State University and the Catholic University of Louvain. The project is headed by Ahmed Sameh, Purdue's Samuel D. Conte Professor of Computer Science.

    "One challenge will be taking the scientific simulation and putting it into a commercial visualization software so that the package is viewer friendly," said Popescu, who is leading that portion of the work.

    Mathematical models are used to represent the Boeing 767 and the building.

    "The simulation is enabling us to 'look' inside the building to see what really happened structurally," Sozen said. "This is not the first simulation, but I would say it's the most scientifically realistic one. We have spent a great deal of time on details of the mechanical properties of the columns and of the airplane, and we have benefited from the results of previous efforts at simulation."

    In a broader sense, results of the computational component of the work will help scientists and engineers better understand situations and phenomena that are not ordinarily accessible using other methods. Such models can lead to insights in many areas of research and industry for applications ranging from designing safer buildings to developing new pharmaceuticals, said Sozen and Hoffmann.

    High-performance computing is essential for the research, Hoffmann said. The computer scientists and engineers have been using the "nano-regatta" computer, an IBM system approximately equivalent to the combined power of 128 personal computers. The computer is operated by Information Technology at Purdue as part of the Network for Computational Nanotechnology, based at Purdue's Discovery Park and supported by the NSF.

    Other computations were carried out using computers operated by the Northwest Indiana Computational Grid, a consortium supported by the U.S. Department of Energy involving Purdue, the University of Notre Dame, Purdue University Calumet and the Argonne National Laboratory, as well as computers at Purdue's Robert L. and Terry L. Bowen Civil Engineering Laboratory for Large Scale Research.

    A team consisting of many of the same Purdue researchers in 2002 created a similar simulation of the Sept. 11 attack on the Pentagon.

    Experience gained during the Pentagon-related research and laboratory experiments have helped the Purdue civil engineers and computer scientists develop the new model, Sozen said.

    "As a result of the Pentagon research, we have a better understanding of what happens when a tremendous mass of fluid such as fuel hits a solid object at high velocity," Sozen said. "We believe most of the structural damage from such aircraft collisions is caused by the mass of the fluid on the craft, which includes the fuel.

    "Damage resulting solely from the metal fuselage, engines and other aircraft parts is not as great as that resulting from the mass of fluids on board. You could think of the aircraft as a sausage skin. Its mass is tiny compared to the plane's fluid contents." (Oh, and as grizley as it is, I'm sure humans are figured in as part of those "fluid contents" considering humans are 70% water)


    The simulation represents the plane and its mass as a mesh of hundreds of thousands of "finite elements," or small squares containing specific physical characteristics. Like the previous Pentagon simulation, the software tool uses principles of physics to simulate how a plane's huge mass of fuel and cargo impacts a building.

    "It is a virtual reality," Sozen said. "The building is reduced to a mathematical representation, the airplane is reduced to a mathematical representation, and then we see what happens on impact."

    Santiago Pujol, an assistant professor of civil engineering, worked with the researchers to develop experimental data to test the accuracy of the simulation by using an "impact simulator" to shoot 8-ounce beverage cans at high velocity at steel and concrete targets at Purdue's Bowen Laboratory. These data enabled the researchers to fine tune and validate the theoretical model for the simulation.

    "We created a mathematical model of the beverage can and its fluid contents the same way we modeled the airplane, and then we tested our assumptions used to formulate the model by comparing the output from the model with that from the experiment," Sozen said.

    (HAHA!! Sounds like this is a test even the DUmmies might understand! LOL!)

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    Creepy Ass Cracka & Site Owner Ryan Ruck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire couldn't have brought down the WTC

    Oh, and I also wanted to post this – A Critical Analysis Of The Collapse Of WTC Towers 1, 2, & 7 From An Explosives And Conventional Demolition Industry Viewpoint

    Since it is PDF format, I didn't want to spend the time to try to reformat it for posting but, it is all there to read.

    ----
    Edit by Mal...above link doesn't appear to work. Try this one.
    http://www.implosionworld.com/Articl...09-8-06%20.pdf

    ----
    Edit by Ryan:
    Just noticed your corrective edit Mal. Thanks! I've fixed the original link to show the new one.
    Last edited by Ryan Ruck; December 5th, 2006 at 11:49. Reason: Fixed link to document

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    Default Re: Fire couldn't have brought down the WTC

    Libertatem Prius!


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    Creepy Ass Cracka & Site Owner Ryan Ruck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire couldn't have brought down the WTC

    Nope, fire cannot melt steel...

    California Interchange Collapses After Tanker Fire

    A tanker burns on a section of freeway that funnels traffic onto the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge.

    A section of freeway that funnels traffic off the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge collapsed early Sunday after a gasoline tanker truck overturned and caught fire beneath it, authorities said.

    The heat was intense enough to melt part of the freeway and cause the collapse, but the truck's driver walked away from the scene with second-degree burns.

    No other injuries were reported, which officials said was only possible because the accident happened so early on a Sunday morning. The truck driver took a taxi to a nearby hospital, Officer Trent Cross of the California Highway Patrol said.

    Authorities said the damage could take months to repair, and that it would cause the worst disruption for Bay Area commuters since the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake damaged a section of the Bay Bridge itself.

    Transportation officials said they already had added trains to the Bay Area Rapid Transit light rail system that takes commuters across San Francisco Bay, and were urging people to telecommute if possible.

    State officials said motorists who try to take alternate routes Monday instead of relying on public transportation would face nightmarish commutes.



    The tanker carrying 8,600 gallons of gasoline ignited around 3:45 a.m. after crashing into a pylon on the interchange, which connects westbound lanes of Interstate 80 to southbound I-880, on the edge of downtown Oakland about half a mile from the Bay Bridge's toll plaza.

    A preliminary investigation indicated he may have been speeding on the curving road, Cross said.

    The fire melted a second interchange from eastbound I-80 to eastbound I-580 located above the first interchange, causing a 250-yard section of the roadway to collapse onto the roadway below, according to the highway patrol.

    Witnesses reported flames from the blaze reached up to 200 feet high.

    Late Sunday morning, the charred section of collapsed freeway was draped at a sharp angle onto the highway beneath, exposing a web of twisted metal beneath the concrete.

    "I've never seen anything like it," Cross said of the crumpled interchange. "I'm looking at this thinking, 'Wow, no one died — that's amazing. It's just very fortunate."

    The Bay Bridge consists of two heavily traveled, double-decked bridges about two miles long straddling San Francisco Bay. State transportation officials said 280,000 commuters take the bridge into San Francisco each day.

    San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom said the accident showed how fragile the Bay area's transportation network is, whether to an earthquake or terrorist attack, and has the potential to have a major economic effect on the city.

    "It's another giant wakeup call," Newsom told reporters at the California Democratic Party convention in San Diego.


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    Default Re: Fire couldn't have brought down the WTC

    Yeah, you should have seen the thread where I posted that on Anomalies. LOL
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    Creepy Ass Cracka & Site Owner Ryan Ruck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire couldn't have brought down the WTC

    Something recent? Got link?

    After all, I'm sure it is within the realm of possibility that .gov flew a missile/planted demo charges into that overpass.

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    Default Re: Fire couldn't have brought down the WTC

    No, I was talking about a thread where I've been arguing for WEEKS on this conspiracy crap -- against it, and at least two people said "We all know fire can't melt steel"... etc. I posted a couple links to some pictures and a story about the fire caused by the tanker.

    I'm sure that by now the thread is dead anyway, no one has posted in it for a couple weeks.

    Funny thing about that, if I post over there, I MAKE SURE I have my facts in line and they... the people who argue, simply dry up after awhile.
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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Fire couldn't have brought down the WTC

    ok, ok i cant help myself. i HAVE to say it. point blank, if fire cant melt steel, then how the hell do we get it molten, shape it, and produce finished goods with it??????

    the people arguing for the conspiracy theories involving fire's inability to melt steel HAVE OBVIOUSLY NEVER worked in a STEEL MILL. bunch of idjits.
    the problem with the conspiracy lovers is this: they arent rooted in LOGIC, giving them LOGICAL EXPLANATIONS will simply pass in one ear and out the other, til they can come up with a newer and even greater theory to trump your current explanation. and so the cycle begins anew.

    they dont listen because they arent rooted in logic. they are based entirely on emotion and an irrational fear of big brother and the new world order or whatever evil world dominating entity they hate today. i think its currently Bush, inc. as they call it. or whatever. not that i care. they are illogical and irrational to the point of mental illness.

    but yeah. fire cant melt steel. what a bunch of fools. id like one of those retards to explain to me how scrap metal, in particular steel, is melted down and re-used then. and yeah. im waiting for a response. im sure it will not be forthcoming. Rick, can you post me a link to that forum you were talking about? id love to say a few words.

    ev

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    Creepy Ass Cracka & Site Owner Ryan Ruck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire couldn't have brought down the WTC

    Quote Originally Posted by eversman View Post
    Rick, can you post me a link to that forum you were talking about? id love to say a few words.
    ev,
    A link to that site would be found on our front page. It is The Anomalies Network, incidentally our sister site. AN is where a number of us migrated from when we decided that the message about the threat from the TAA needed to evolve and grow on its own. AN is a site dedicated to conspiracy, space, and paranormal topics (though it used to deal also with more news and politics as well which is largely where we participated). Since a site like TAA deals with subjects off the beaten path (though we are seeming to get more and more mainstream with each passing day as TAA related world events progress and get more prominent), it can be expected that we would attract some conspiracy minded people. As such, a partnership with a site that deals with such topics makes sense as it gives people a place to discuss their conspiracies while TAA is dedicated to serious geopolitical discussion.

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