Why I Left Jihad

[SAdams]

I was talking to my brother over the weekend and he showed me this book:

Why I Left Jihad, By Walid Shoebat

He was telling me a lot about it and it sounded very interesting. It has a lot about the end times in it. Walid Shoebat is a former terrorist, who became a Christian after realizing the evil that Islam is. From what my brother told me about the book and from the excerpts he read me it sounds like Walid Shoebat believes that Islam is the beast referred to in Revelation and that the end times will be brought about by Islamic Jihad.

Very interesting. I haven't had time to start reading the book yet, but I was interested to see if anyone else here had. If so,what did you think about it?

[Isaiah40:31]

I have not read the book, it sounds interesting.

After having read the bible and koran, I believe that Islam is THE FALSE RELIGION spoken of in revelation.

[SAdams]

I have not read the book, it sounds interesting.

After having read the bible and koran, I believe that Islam is THE FALSE RELIGION spoken of in revelation.

Based on the excerpts that my brother read me it sounds like Walid Shoebat would agree with you.

The one interesting thing my brother read that really stuck out to me was when Shoebat explained how in Revelation it says the name of the beast was blasphemy. Then he explains how there are many instances in The Bible where names are meant to show the character of the person or thing they are describing, but not an actual name (ie the beast will not literally be named "blasphemy", but it's character will be blashpemy).

Revelation 13 KJV


1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

With that in mind, he said that Islam is the only religion in the world who's core is to teach that Jesus was not God's son. Other religions might imply that indirectly, but according to Shoebat, only Islam makes a direct assault upon the divinity of Christ. Which of course is the definition of blasphemy...interesting.

[Isaiah40:31]

Islam is the only religion that denies Jesus as the resurrected son of God. It is also the only religion who's 'holy book' promotes itself by force or 'protection money'. It twists history and it entails enough of the TRUTH so that many will believe the lies it holds.

[Sean Osborne]

Thanks for sharing this information with us SAdams. I have not read this book, but am familiar with the thesis. I am also aware that to the average American reader the book is an editorial mess, very difficult to read as there are many disjointed paragraphs. However, Shoebat does succeed in ripping the myths of the terrorists to shreds with truth to great effect.

Walid Shoebat is not alone in his belief that the beast of Revelation is Islam. I know of several people, well very known in eschatology, who've been hinting at such a thing for some time now.

I do not subscribe to this eschatologial theorem for a couple of Bible-based reasons.

1.) According to the prophetic words of the Bible, the books of Daniel and the Revelation of Jesus Christ in particular, the beast and the number of his name are that of an individual man and Islam is not his religion.

Revelation 13:18

This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.

Daniel 9:26b:

The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

The Antichrist (the first beast of Revelation 13) will be a descendant of Rome, the city of seven hills, it was the Romans who destroyed the city and the 2nd Temple.

2.)The globally powerful religion of the False Prophet does not appear to be any currently recognizable religion, and the text of Bible prophecy from Paul pointedly describes the religion of the beast/Antichrist thusly:

II Thessalonians 2:4

He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

The beast, Antichrist will oppose ALL other religions, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, all of them.

He will declare himself to be God.

This is the reason and the source of his blasphemy - Satan has been proclaiming this ambition to usurp the Throne of God since before mankind ever existed. Revelation 17 and 18 make this clear.

[Isaiah40:31]

The false prophet will have to follow a false religion that opposes all other religions, which Islam does. Many people view biblical prophecy from the way the world appears today and has been for a while. The Roman Catholic Church, pope, Rome Italy, etc.

If we fastforward in time, viewing the religious moves through the recent paths, we can see the possibility of an Imam (or the 12th Imam) of Islam rising to power in Italy once Islam has dominated the country and set up their own rule, which is what they have been trying to achieve.

In reading revelation and descriptions of the false religion and prophet, It doesn't neccesarily need to be a person of the Roman Catholic faith or current religious ruler in Rome, only that the region or empire is where he will arise from.

It has been a while since I flipped through scriptures and noted the "dots" from Revelation, the prophets, and words of Christ so I don't have a ready reference to post explaining this better.


If the Roman Catholic Church continues its path toward political correctness and the pope at some point "reverts" to Islam, that changes the face and core of Roman Catholicism and it becomes the muslim religion of Islam and would no longer be a Christian religion.

Of course none of us know everything that God tells us in His word and some things won't be revealed until such time that they are revealed and it is by faith alone we continue to trust The Lord until His glorious return.

[SAdams]

Thanks for the insights guys. I am still undecided about this, but I would like to read the book and find out more about what Shoebat says.

Another interesting thing that my brother shared with me about the book had to do with the number of the beast "666".

I am just going from memory here, so I might not have the details exact, but this is the gist of what Shoebat was saying:

He thinks that it is possible that when John recieved the vision, that he didn't completely understand everything he saw. Shoebat thinks it is possible that in the portion of the vision where John was given the number of the beast that he saw some characters, but did not understand them. The characters he may have seen were arabic characters and when John wrote this vision down he tried to copy those characters onto the page as he remembered seeing them.

Then, when scholars read them later, they did not recognize them and misinterpreted them to mean a number, when in fact they were a symbol. Now, this is where my memory is a little sketchy, but Shoebat shows a picture of a piece of a Dead Sea Scroll that happens to have on it the particular passage in Revelation where the number is given. On the scroll is a symbol that looks like an "X". I'm not sure if that is the entire symbol or not, but the gist is that this symbol could have been interpreted as the number 666 by scholars.

However, from an Arabic perspective, this symbol is not a number 666, but to Shoebat this symbol looks just like the symbol of Jihad, a symbol often worn by terrorists on bandanas on their foreheads or on armbands on their right arm...

Revelation 13:16 (King James Version)

16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads

So, Shoebat is making the connection that instead of the number of the beast being 666, that it is a symbol and that symbol is the symbol used by Islamic Jihadists.

Again, I am paraphrasing here and may be missing some key points, as this is just what I remember from about a 10minute conversation with my brother about the book. I haven't read it myself yet, but I just thought I'd throw this out there and see what your thoughts are on it.

Sean, I'd be particularly interested to hear your thought on this book if you have a chance to read it sometime.

[Isaiah40:31]

SA

I really need to get that book and see what else he has to say.
About the 666 and Arabic symbol, it sounds like he is trying to interpret from and 'Arabic' mindset. As far as I know, there wasn't Arabic language, or it was isolated, at the time "John the revelator" wrote Revelations. There was Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek. Arabic would have come a few centuries later when muhammed "read-recited" the koran.

Since all scriptures were written by holy men inspired by God. It is reasonable that God would have given them in the language the holy men understood, for John it would have been Hebrew.

Sean correct me if I am wrong please.

[SAdams]

SA

I really need to get that book and see what else he has to say.
About the 666 and Arabic symbol, it sounds like he is trying to interpret from and 'Arabic' mindset. As far as I know, there wasn't Arabic language, or it was isolated, at the time "John the revelator" wrote Revelations. There was Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek. Arabic would have come a few centuries later when muhammed "read-recited" the koran.

Since all scriptures were written by holy men inspired by God. It is reasonable that God would have given them in the language the holy men understood, for John it would have been Hebrew.

Sean correct me if I am wrong please.

That's a good point, and maybe Shoebat addresses that in his book. I don't know though because I haven't actually read it. I only saw some pictures that my brother showed me from the book.

It could be that John saw an actual vision of Islamic Jihadists wearing the bandanas and arm bands and remembered the symbol and tried to copy it? I don't know. I'm certainly no eschatological scholar or general biblical scholar for that matter.

Hopefully I didn't completely butcher or twist what he was trying to say. I am going to try and pick up a copy of the book soon and read for myself so I can discuss this more intelligently.

[SAdams]

As far as The Bible being the inspired, inerrant Word of God, yes I believe that is so. And that would seem to refute an argument about "666" being misinterpreted. However, doesn't it also say somewhere in The Bible that some things will not be revealed until the end times? Maybe this is one of those things? Although that would still seem to be contradictory to God's Word being inerrant.

I sent a PM to Sean about this, but I might as well post it here too, since it would seem to tie into what we are discussing.

Over new years eve I was at a friends house and we were doing some Bible study. This friend of mine is very into Biblical eschatology. Anyway, he brought out a copy of the septuagint/apocrypha and started telling me some interesting things.

He read a passage from Luke (iirc) in which Jesus is reading from Isaiah to the Pharisees. The passage that Jesus is reading is listing the things that will identify The Messiah. In Luke, Jesus's quote of Isaiah mentions one of the identifying characteristics of Messiah, as giving sight to the blind. However, in canonized scripture, if you turn to the passage in Isaiah that Jesus was reading, the characteristic of giving sight to the blind is strangely missing. But, if you read the septuagint it is there just as Jesus read it. My friend claimed that in fact Jesus had read from the septuagint, not what we have today as the canonized old testament. He also claimed that there were several other instances like this in The Bible, but I don't remember the specific examples anymore.

This seemed strange to me and I don't have a good answer for why the septuagint seems to have a more accurate translation, at least in this specific case, than our canonized OT.

In addition, my friend mentioned how Jude references Enoch, but Enoch is not included in our Bible, but is part of the apocrypha (iirc).

I am not sure what to think of all this, as I haven't studied these issues at all, but would certianly welcome any discussion about it. Maybe there is a good reason why there is a discrepancy? Or maybe there isn't a discrepancy at all, but only seeming to be one?

In any case, this train of thought could be an argument (even if a totally invalid one) used by someone trying to claim that 666 was misinterpreted. In other words, they might use this as a "proof" that there are some things which aren't 100% clear about our current Bible. And just to reiterate, I haven't read Shoebat's book, so I am not trying to say he made or would make this argument at all.

I'm also not saying I agree with it. More or less, I'd love to see some discussion about it so that I can be more well informed about eschatological matters myself and for the next time I talk to this friend of mine.

[Isaiah40:31]

He read a passage from Luke (iirc) in which Jesus is reading from Isaiah to the Pharisees. The passage that Jesus is reading is listing the things that will identify The Messiah. In Luke, Jesus's quote of Isaiah mentions one of the identifying characteristics of Messiah, as giving sight to the blind. However, in canonized scripture, if you turn to the passage in Isaiah that Jesus was reading, the characteristic of giving sight to the blind is strangely missing. But, if you read the septuagint it is there just as Jesus read it. My friend claimed that in fact Jesus had read from the septuagint, not what we have today as the canonized old testament. He also claimed that there were several other instances like this in The Bible, but I don't remember the specific examples anymore.

This seemed strange to me and I don't have a good answer for why the septuagint seems to have a more accurate translation, at least in this specific case, than our canonized OT.

KJV:

Luke 4:18 18. The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,


Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

SA, which version of the bible were you and your friend using?

Living Bible
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the suffering and afflicted. He has sent me to comfort the broken-hearted, to announce liberty to captives and to open the eyes of the blind.

- Revised Standard
Isaiah 61:1 THE SPIRIT of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me to bring good tidings to the afflicted; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;

-- New American Standard
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me,
Because the Lord has anointed me
To bring good news to the afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives,
And freedom to prisoners;

-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
Isaiah 61:1 The spirit of Lord Yahweh is on me
for Yahweh has anointed me.
He has sent me to bring the news to the afflicted,
to soothe the broken-hearted,

-- New American with Apocrypha
Isaiah 61:1 The spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
because the LORD has anointed me;
He has sent me to bring glad tidings to the lowly,
to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
and release to the prisoners,

-- New Revised Standard with Apocrypha
Isaiah 61:1 The spirit of the Lord God is upon me,
because the Lord has anointed me;
he has sent me to bring good news to the oppressed,
to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim liberty to the captives,
and release to the prisoners;

[Isaiah40:31]

Also:

-- King James
Isaiah 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

-- New King James
Isaiah 42:7 To open blind eyes, to bring out prisoners from the prison, those who sit in darkness from the prison house.

-- American Standard
Isaiah 42:7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house.

-- Living Bible
Isaiah 42:7 You will open the eyes of the blind, and release those who sit in prison darkness and despair.

-- Revised Standard
Isaiah 42:7 to open the eyes that are blind, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, from the prison those who sit in darkness.


-- New American Standard
Isaiah 42:7 To open blind eyes,
To bring out prisoners from the dungeon,
And those who dwell in darkness from the prison.

-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
Isaiah 42:7 to open the eyes of the blind,
to free captives from prison,
and those who live in darkness from the dungeon.

-- New American with Apocrypha
Isaiah 42:7 To open the eyes of the blind,
to bring out prisoners from confinement,
and from the dungeon, those who live in darkness.

-- New Revised Standard with Apocrypha
Isaiah 42:7 to open the eyes that are blind,
to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon,
from the prison those who sit in darkness.

[Isaiah40:31]

However, from an Arabic perspective, this symbol is not a number 666, but to Shoebat this symbol looks just like the symbol of Jihad, a symbol often worn by terrorists on bandanas on their foreheads or on armbands on their right arm...

So, Shoebat is making the connection that instead of the number of the beast being 666, that it is a symbol and that symbol is the symbol used by Islamic Jihadists.

From an Arabic perspective if the 666 looks like a jihadist symbol then Islamic jihadists could interpret it that way, however:

-- King James
Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
-- New King James
Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.
-- American Standard
Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. He that hath understanding, let him count the number of the beast; for it is the number of a man: and his number is Six hundred and sixty and six.
-- Living Bible
Revelation 13:18 Here is a puzzle that calls for careful thought to solve it. Let those who are able, interpret this code: the numerical values of the letters in his name add to 666!
-- Revised Standard
Revelation 13:18 This calls for wisdom: let him who has understanding reckon the number of the beast, for it is a human number, its number is six hundred and sixty-six.
-- Simple English
Revelation 13:18 This is wisdom: The person who has understanding should figure out the number of the wild animal. (It is the same way that men count.) Its number is 666.


Scripture is clear that 666 is the number of a man. There are differences of opinion as to whether the number equates to a person's name or if it is 6 hundredth and sixty sixth person of a specific region or kingdom or possibly both.

I still haven't ordered the book.

[Isaiah40:31]

SA
As far as I know, there wasn't Arabic language, or it was isolated, at the time "John the revelator" wrote Revelations. There was Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek. Arabic would have come a few centuries later when muhammed "read-recited" the koran.

To correct myself about Arabic language:

Arabic Language, the language of written communication and of most formal, oral communication for speakers of Arabic dialects from ffice:smarttags" />Morocco to lace w:st="on">Iraqlace>. Among Muslims, Arabic is considered sacred since it is the language through which the Qur'an (Koran) is believed to have been revealed. With the rise of Islam as a dominant religion after ad 622, Arabic became the most widespread of the living Semitic languages. Classified as South Central Semitic, Arabic is related to Hebrew, spoken in Israel, and Amharic, spoken in lace w:st="on">Ethiopialace>, as well as to the ancient Semitic languages. The earliest written inscriptions in Arabic are found in the lace w:st="on">Arabian Peninsulalace> and date from the early 4th century ad. Today, Arabic is a unifying bond among Arabs, and it is the liturgical language of Muslims in Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia, parts of Sub-Saharan Africa, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan. /

Semitic Languages, one of the five subfamilies or branches of the Hamito-Semitic or Afro-Asiatic language family (see Afro-Asiatic Languages). Of the Semitic languages, Arabic was carried beyond its original home in the Arabian Peninsula and spread throughout the Arabian Empire and is spoken across lace w:st="on">North Africalace> to the Atlantic coast, and Arabic and Hebrew are used by Muslims and Jews in other parts of the world. The other Semitic languages are centered in a region bounded on the west by Ethiopia and on the north by Syria and extending southeast through Iraq and the Arab Peninsula, with some “islands” of Semitic speech farther east in Iran.>>
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761576546_1/Arabic_Language.html#S4>>

Arabic belongs to the Semitic family of languages, which also includes Hebrew, Syriac, Aramaic, and several languages of Ethiopia, such as the Aramaic and the Tigrinya. Arabic and Hebrew are the only Semitic languages that are still used today both in their writing and speaking forms.
. . . . . . .
The Arabic language was developed in what is today Yemen and Saudi Arabia far before the birth of Christ (there is no evidence available as to how far back the development of any of the Semitic languages began). Pre-Islamic Arab poets had developed a language of incredible richness and flexibility despite the fact that many were desert Bedouins with little or no formal education.
http://www.arabicbible.com/christian/arabic_language_hist.htm>>




The rise of Arabic to the status of a major world language is inextricably intertwined with the rise of Islam a major world religion. Before the appearance of Islam, Arabic was a minor member of the southern branch of the Semitic language family, used by a small number of largely nomadic tribes in the Arabian peninsula, with an extremely poorly documented textual history. Within a hundred years after the death (in 632 C.E.) of Muhammad, the prophet entrusted by God to deliver the Islamic message, Arabic had become the official language of a world empire whose boundaries stretched from the Oxus River in Central Asia to the Atlantic Ocean, and had even moved northward into the Iberian Peninsula of Europe.
http://www.indiana.edu/~arabic/arabic_history.htm>>

[Isaiah40:31]

sorry about the weird stuff in last post

[SAdams]

Isaiah, thanks a lot fo all those replies.

Sorry that I didn't specify the exact verses. My friend was using the KJV when he showed me this. I also looked up the references in the NASB and found the same thing as the KJV.

You had the verses correct. He read from Luke 4:18 (KJV) and then from Isaiah 61:1 (KJV) and the part about giving sight to the blind was missing in Isaiah 61:1 in the KJV and NASB, but it wasn't missing in his copy of the septuagint.

As I believe that The Bible is in fact The Word of God, I know that there has to be a logical explanation for it. He never did reference Isaiah 42:7, so maybe that is what accounts for the seeming discrepancy? Thanks for posting that.

[Isaiah40:31]

SA, I had to check it out for myself too. I don't understand why the discrepancy either, but considering several scholars in different parts of the world translated the same documents and came up with the same results when the original KJV was compiled, there must be a GODLY explanation for it.