the faq said...

[Woland]

You all are a bunch of conspiracy kooks! You are just a bunch of warmongers that want to hate the USSR back into existance so you have an enemy to fight! You are all full of ****! You people are so completely wrong that I can't believe it! Ad nauseam...
Well, okay… If that is what you really believe, sign up with our message boards and logically debate facts with us rather than just contemptuously dismissing our message or laughing us off as kooks.

I am not sure what facts can be used against this kind of conjecture (that despite all apperances the ussr still exists) but this in the faq pretty much sums me up and ... well I do what I am told.

To me it seems that what you use as evidence to support this supposition is Russia's willingness to act in its own interests rather than those of the USA. Russia acts in its own interests and you can be sure some far-rightists in the USA freak out, as if its a surprise that a sovreign nation should act in its own interests.
Ok, so the USA maybe got so caught up in the idea of a hegemon that it can't imagine any significant country acting against that without there being some evil machinations behind it. Perhaps though its just self interested nationalism, what exactly is there to suggest not? (and soviet symbology now plays a heavy role in russian nationalism, so I don't think that counts).

Part of me finds it hard to accept you beleive these things, but then, really I find it harder to beleive that you listen to people like David Horowitz and can talk straightfaced about how virtuous the USA is. I honestly find some of the more mainstream rightist beleifs more difficult to comprehend than this conspiricy theory, because the cold war runs deep in some people... I can get that, I know plenty on the left still scarred by it, who, even if they don't make up stories that the soviet union still exists, are stuck in a mindset as though it were and a practice as though it were.

I mean, I love reading this stuff, I eat it up, its delightful. It has all the elements of good simplistic dualistic fiction. Sometimes I chuckle to myself and wonder if maybe my worldveiw is just the result of decades of communist infiltration in education, that's how good it is as fiction, I can really suspend disbelief, but then I come back to reality, and I know I am right and you guys are wrong.

I think, more than you being warmongers that want an enemy to fight, a lot of people who beleive this stuff are dangerous christians who want to beleive its the end times, or who are just totally consumed by chrisitan dualism. At least, there seems to be a bizzare coagulation between christian and jewish far rightisms that dips into this stuff and defends the USA and Israel to a degree I find bizzare.

[MinutemanCO]

Mr. Woland

Although quite capable of geopolitical apologetics, I'll not take your bait without a more significant intellectual effort on your part. A simple denial of factual information and unfounded redirection utilizing ad hominem argument does not an ample defense make. Do your homework, exercise some effort, compile specific counter argument for specific points already made and I can assure you, I, at the very least shall respond.


However, for all resident forum members, give us a modicum of socio-cultural background on yourself. It’s reasonably clear that you do not hail from the United States… where do you call home? Help us to understand your predispositions prior to engaging you in such a worthy battle.

[American Patriot]

I smell something.. I begin to suspect a TROLL.

[American Patriot]

I mean, I love reading this stuff, I eat it up, its delightful. It has all the elements of good simplistic dualistic fiction. Sometimes I chuckle to myself and wonder if maybe my worldveiw is just the result of decades of communist infiltration in education, that's how good it is as fiction, I can really suspend disbelief, but then I come back to reality, and I know I am right and you guys are wrong.

Wonder no more then... it is

Something you need to understand here is that 90% of what you see posted here comes DIRECTLY from the news media, and for your information not just those damned fools at Foxnews. It comes from Reuters, AP, ABC, CBS, CNN, FOX, WND and a whole LOT of foreign press entries, not the least of which are Pravda, and several Chinese outlets as well.

So you see, you're world view, such as it is has been limited to your own education. And yes, I too went to public schools. The difference my friend is I CHOSE to not listen to schools and some of the leftists teachers and take their word as gospel.

And yet, it seems that there are those among you out there, because I am a Right-Leaning person, would say to me "You're brainwashed" or "You follow the party line" or worse, that I'm a Nazi.

Well, guess what, I'm not brainwashed, I CAN read and think for myself and I don't need someone like Rush Limbaugh telling me how to think nor what to think and indeed I don't listen to him. In fact, I listen to know one, but my own inner voice that directs me in right and wrong, or right and left in this case.

I have one other advantage that many here do not have. I am a world traveler. I've visited 40 plus countries, seen how they live, have had to deal with everything from normal to democracies, to abnormal Communism. I've been shot at, the Chinese tried to KILL me, so did those commie bastards in Central America a few years ago.

I got my "opinions" from factual data, having been there, and seen it, and listened to the preaching of the "other side". They are bad, and they don't care about you either.

So your point about this all being a "simplist dualist fiction" is really blown out of the water. This is not some "made up story" on the part of the staff here. In fact, as Minute Man said.... I don't think any of us will taking the bait, but if you honestly want to debate something you see in a thread somewhere, certainly feel free.

But if you come off with the attitude of "I'm right and you're wrong" off the bat, son, you've been discounted before you even got your face in the door.

Enjoy your stay, such as it might be.

[Woland]

I smell something.. I begin to suspect a TROLL.

is troll the word you use for people who's don't agree with you? Lol, if so I am a troll, but I'm not posting all caps swear words, I'm trying to be civil.

MinutemanCO, yes I don't come from the USA, I live in Wales which is presently part of the UK. I've also in my life lived in Norway when I was a child because my father works in the oil industry, which is the closest offline that I have come to American culture (through the expat community there).

I'm not sure exactly what I need to say though, you are the people who came up with a theory, you can't prove a negative and all that.
I don't see what about the behavior of Russia can be explained by this weird secret soviets theory that isn't better explained by national interest and nationalism. When I watch the bbc lately there is a growing suspicion of Russia because it has been realised that it is a country that won't simply act in, for lack of a better word "western" interests whenever it is told to. The sentiments that come out from that have the same feel to them as what is written here, except on a far lower scale and without conspiracy theories. I think its bizzare anyone would ever expect a sovreign country not to act in its own interests rather than those of another country. I think the problem is that people felt that if they could destroy the bipolarality of the cold war that they would come to a unipolar world of ideal american hegemony, but it was never going to be that easy.

[American Patriot]

is troll the word you use for people who's don't agree with you? Lol, if so I am a troll, but I'm not posting all caps swear words, I'm trying to be civil.

Quick response this morning. I suppose you're just sitting there waiting for responses.

The answer to your question is "No".

A troll is the phrase we use for people who show up to any site, dimetrically opposed to the viewpoint at the outset, with a completely closed mind, who are intent on doing harm to the site in some manner.

"Trolls" -- the term is VERY OLD on BBSes, long before the Internet existed, and I assure you I've been around the internet LONGER than you have, and I was running BBSes when you were probably not even born yet -- are people whose sole intent is to "troll for a fight". Which is precisely what you've started your first post doing.

That's fine, we give everyone the benefit of doubt. You're more than welcome to debate. But, setting yourself up a thread in which to debate vague details isn't going to cut it. You'll note in my second message, I stated, you were welcome to debate on any of the topics... and you are, but starting up a thread just to "put down" the community isn't going to happen.

I've left this particular thread open just for a bit to give you a little rope... I mean an opportunity to prove you're here for the RIGHT reasons. Intelligent debate, not liberal whining. So, if you're here for the former reason, feel free.

If you're here to look for a fight, you will get one, I promise.

Being civil is indeed what this is about. Certainly questioning something is fine. But, questioning the entire premise of the site? No, sorry, you don't have that right.

1) You're from the UK.
2) You start out selecting a name that in German means "Satan"... I've dealt with several "satans" in the past.
3) You laugh at the concept of Soviet Russia. Remember? They DID exist and most of those same people are still there.

4) America is capitalist. Russia is not really, yet.

5) Democracy versus Communism is what it is all about. I believe in that case, *I* am right and anyone who believe in Communism is WRONG. So, I suppose it comes down, eventually to who will win by force. That is precisely what communism does to people, look at Cuba, China, North Korea, Argentina (who is currently shutting down anyone in the country that can stand up to Chavez). Look to Russia, bringing back the old Soviets into power, and the remarks that Putin has to make on occasion. Look at countries like Iraq, Iran, and Syria -- Islamic countries that are dealing with China, Russia and North Korea. Perhaps it is no conspiracy, since it is so OPEN. Either way, the world is coming to a conclusion, through use of force.

This is inevitable. We, the US, and UK are NOT going to simply give up and accept "Islam" rule, nor Communist rule. It won't happen, we all WILL go down with a fight.

It is coming. If you can not see it from the evidence on this site, then you've obviously not read far enough into the site (reading the TOS, or the FAQ is insufficient for you to form ANY sort of an opinion about this site, by the way, which brings us back to the original question of being a troll).

Trolls, Sir, do end up banned for their actions. So...my suggestion to you is behave not as a troll but someone who is genuinely interested in the material on this site with an OPEN mind, not a preconceived notion that you're here to fight us. If you chose the latter, you will lose any argument before you even form the words.

[Woland]

I can't just choose to have an open mind. I can't choose what I beleive.
Ok, yeah, my name is satan, that was probably bad form, I didn't know it was German, its the name of the character in the book I am reading right now (Master and Margarita), if I'd realised it literally translates that way I would have probably reconsidered.

So, I read the articles in the Russia section. (And I am not waiting for a reply! I logged on just a little bit back... and will log off soon enough because I have stuff to do). I can't get how any of those suggest that the problem is one of ideology rather than a difference of interests.

This is what I don't agree with, that you say there is a difference in ideology that fundamentally gets in the way of relations, but all I see is differing interests. What is about russia that you think makes it seem communist? That it does not adhere to a neoliberal economic model? But then neither have many ideologically capitalist countries. That it uses soviet symbology? But that's populism, lots of Russians, especially older ones still like those symbols.

What remarks by Putin, because if you mean the one about the collapse of the soviet union being a disaster, that's because, the way it happened, was. Even if it had to happen, the way it was done was unprofessional and unpleasent for Russia. That doesn't mean he wants it back, there is a lot of nostaligia for it in Russia. It's like when Margeret Thatcher was elected in the UK, and all the people who support her generally admit that her policies caused pain and were from an immediate point of veiw unpleasent, but that in the long term it was "best for britain" - and a lot of people in the UK are still nostalgic for the "postwar consensus" but ultimatly neoliberalism won and we will never go back to the keynesian consensus, whatever else comes in the future, that formation, the precise conditions which grew into it, have changed. Even if at some future date someone wants to try and replicate the past, it will fail because the future grows out of material reality and not peoples "visions".

I haven't got the skill to do any damage to your site, and I wouldn't want to, if I really wanted to destroy the rightist hordes that are the only thing standing in the way of evil leftist power forever, then I think there are quite a few more productive ways to go about that task no?

[American Patriot]

"keynesian consensus"? So you're saying here that basically, capitalism is out and socialism is in?

I haven't got the skill to do any damage to your site, and I wouldn't want to, if I really wanted to destroy the rightist hordes that are the only thing standing in the way of evil leftist power forever, then I think there are quite a few more productive ways to go about that task no?

I'm not talking about physical damage. We've dealt often and harshly at times with people for their BEHAVIOR - when I say damage, I mean attempts to disrupt the site. Physical damage might be done by those who have access to certain features and tools, but it would be difficult at best. I'm not concerned about hackers.

I did note, this morning a sudden influx of "guests" reading this thread though, and amazingly they are from the same area of the world you're from. I find that... fascinating.

Are you then, from your remarks about Putin, an apologist then?

[American Patriot]

Hit save too quickly....

I can't just choose to have an open mind. I can't choose what I beleive.

You can not?

Certainly you can. Christians chose what to believe, as do Hindus, Moslems, and a multitude of other people in other religions.

We all chose to believe things, we're not MADE to believe except under extraordinary circumstances (for instance, duress, abuse, brainwashing) or we come to a conclusion based on our best guess of things, given specific information.

I like to thing I don't "believe ANYTHING" until it's proven. That's not 100% but for the most part, I chose no political stance on ANYTHING until I've taken the time to research it very carefully. When I come to a conclusion it is based on two things, my personal moral beliefs, and the facts I gather from the research I've done.

I CHOSE to be a Republican for instance... I STARTED my voting life out as an 18 year old Democrat fully of idealism like anyone else. Then... I "went to war", I LEARNED my American History the hard way, by trying to understand what has gone before and why we did things the way we did them.

I voted originally for Carter. Biggest MISTAKE of my life. I know this now. I knew it by the time I voted for the next President of the US, Ronald Reagan.

I voted for Reagan because I LEARNED in a few short years, watching Carter acting as Commander in Cheif, that he was a dismal human being, and he has not gone against that particular judgement of him SINCE THAT TIME.

My point here, is that most certianly you DO chose your actions, beliefs and path in life. If you do not, then you're directed by someone else -- in which case, this is a very bad thing for you.

[Brian Baldwin]

Personally Woland... I'm fine with your disbelief. But so far I've only seen opinion and excuses for not posting rebuttal to the articles posted. I'd take you a lot more serious and consider you far more respectfully if you'd start posting news storys that counter the news we link to.

To say there's no way to prove they aren't up to no good is laziness. I've got friends on both sides. A couple are connected to this site and others that stand on your side of the opinion fence. But they present their arguements with links to back up their beliefs. And sometimes they even convince me to change a view here or there on a particular instance. This is because they approach it in a manner that is suitable for these kind of sites. They back up their opinion with facts. We've even made them moderators and invited them to write opinion pieces for us because of their approach.

You see, it's not about belief, but about educating one's self. We all start off with belief and then hopefully through debate with intelligent individuals of similar and dissimilar views that have verifiable data, one learns the truth rather than clinging to a belief.

Don't for one second believe that all of us live our days out breathing and eating Communism vs. Democracy. We all have lives outside this site and this site is where we go to impart and take part of information. If you have something to contribute to your side of the debate then please do so. If the information is accurate and counters the point of a thread then it will indeed be considered and you will be applauded for having helped to clear up a misconception on that subject. But if your intent is to pour out opinions only in these threads without ever contributing another thing then you won't last long.

[American Patriot]

Ok... let's say for a minute that it's all about "national pride" for a second. Here's a little something for you.

Estonia want's to remove -- by demolition -- soviet war memorials. Estonia sees the Soviet's as former occupiers.

Do you think that if we were occupied in America for 30-40 years by, say the Chinese and they put up war memorials, then drove them out, we'd leave them there?

I think not. National pride is one thing, if it's in your country. It's wholly another when you try to force it on others.


Russia issues official warning to Estonia in Soviet monument row
RIA Novosti ^ | 18/ 01/ 2007

MOSCOW, January 18 (RIA Novosti) - Moscow has issued its first official warning to Estonia amid an escalating row over the possible demolition of Soviet war memorials in the ex-Soviet Baltic state.

Estonia's parliament adopted a law last week paving the way for the dismantling of Soviet-era war memorials and the reburial of the remains of Soviet soldiers who died fighting German invaders during the Second World War, but who are seen by many Estonians as former occupiers.

The Russian Foreign Ministry said it had summoned Estonia's ambassador to Russia, Marina Kaljurand, who was told that in spite of protests from Moscow, Estonia was continuing attempts to form a legal basis for disinterring Soviet soldiers and destructing monuments, and that such moves could harm bilateral relations.

"The implementation of these plans is fraught with serious consequences for Russian-Estonian relations," the ministry said in a statement.

The controversial bill, which was passed in its first reading in November 2006, resulted from a dispute over a Monument to a Soviet Liberator in central Tallinn, which authorities want removed.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Tuesday that Soviet war memorials in Estonia should remain where they are.

"We must insist that the monuments remain in place," he said, adding that the move was a disgrace, and had nothing to do with preserving historical accuracy.

"The task is to prevent a repetition of the lessons of World War II," he said. "We hope common sense will prevail and an understanding will be reached in order to avert the desecration of monuments to liberators."

The State Duma, Russia's lower house of parliament, is considering a draft resolution on severing contacts with the political forces that initiated and passed the law.

The Russian leadership has repeatedly called the European Union's attention to attempts by Estonia, which declared its independence from the Soviet Union in the early 1990s and joined NATO and the EU in 2004, to glorify Nazi Germany, including with parades by former Nazi SS fighters.

Moscow has also harshly criticized Estonia's discriminatory policies with respect to ethnic Russians who moved to the republic following its annexation by the Soviet Union in 1940 and their descendents.

Many members of Estonia's Russian community are denied citizenship and employment rights, and cannot receive an education in their native language. Amnesty International has condemned the situation in the Baltic country, and called on its leadership to respect the rights of ethnic Russians.

[American Patriot]

Here's some more evidence for you Woland....

Putin sends message to Iran's supreme leader to strengthen ties
xinhuanet ^ | 2007-01-29 | www.chinaview.c



TEHRAN, Jan. 28 (Xinhua) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin has sent a message on expanding mutual ties to Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the official IRNA news agency reported on Sunday.


The message was submitted on Sunday to Khamenei by Russia's Security Council Secretary Igor Ivanov, who arrived in Tehran Saturday night for talks with Iranian officials, IRNA said.


During his meeting with Ivanov, Khamenei said that Iran and Russia can serve as partners in the political, economic, regional and international domains.


"The Islamic Republic of Iran welcomes all-out promotion of relations with Russia, believing that capacity for expansion of ties between the two sides is higher than expected," Khamenei was quoted as saying.


The Iranian supreme leader pointed out that Iran and Russia hold half of the world's total gas reserves and "the two countries through mutual cooperation can establish an organization of gas exporting countries like the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC)."


For his part, Ivanov said that Putin believes the two countries should use all their capacities for promotion of strategic relations and cooperation at bilateral, regional and international levels.


Calling his talks in Tehran "positive," Ivanov said Moscow believes prospect of cooperation between the two countries is "very good and promising."


However, the IRNA report did not mention whether Khamenei and Ivanov discussed Iran's controversial nuclear issue, although the Russian security chief's visit came amid increasing international tension over Tehran's atomic program.


During his visit on Sunday, Ivanov had also held talks with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki and Supreme National Security Council Secretary Ali Larijani.


In his meeting with Mottaki, Ivanov stressed his country's pledge to complete Bushehr nuclear power plant project on the scheduled date, according to IRNA's earlier report.