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Thread: Top scientist says biofuels are scam

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    Junior Member Bulldog's Avatar
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    Default Top scientist says biofuels are scam

    Top scientist says biofuels are scam

    Jonathan Leake and Steven Swinford

    THE government’s policy of promoting biofuels for transport will come under harsh attack this week from one of its senior science advisers.
    Roland Clift will tell a seminar of the Royal Academy of Engineering that the plan to promote bioethanol and biodiesel produced from plants is a “scam”.
    Clift, professor of environmental technology at Surrey University, sits on the scientific advisory council of Defra, David Miliband’s environment department.
    He will tell the seminar that promoting the use of biofuels is likely to increase greenhouse gas emissions.
    Clift’s comments will amount to a direct challenge to Miliband, who has published a strategy promoting biofuels. It coincides with a surge of anger among environmentalists over the weak pledges on climate change that emerged from last week’s G8 summit.
    The audience on Thursday will also include Howard Dalton, Miliband’s chief scientist at Defra, who is expected to speak in defence of biofuels.
    Clift said: “Biodiesel is a complete scam because in the tropics the growing demand is causing forests to be burnt to make way for palm oil and similar crops.
    “We calculate that the land will need to grow biodiesel crops for 70-300 years to compensate for the CO2 emitted in forest destruction.”
    Clift will also condemn plans to produce British biodiesel from rapeseed, pointing to research showing the crop generates copious amounts of nitrous oxide – an even more powerful global warming gas than CO2 The attack comes as the government increases its support for biofuels. Next year it will introduce a requirement for 3% of all fuel sold on UK forecourts to come from a renewable source.
    Across the EU the renewable transport fuels obligation will increase this to 5% by 2010, with the British government pushing for a target of 10%.
    Miliband wants British farming to diversify into biofuels. “It is an important part of our vision for a diversified farming sector,” he said in a recent speech.
    The UK Biomass Strategy published last month is, however, also critical of turning crops into transport fuels, pointing out that this is the least efficient way of using them. It says that it is most efficient simply to burn them.
    Clift is not the only government science adviser calling for a rethink on biofuels. Roger Kemp, who advises the Department for Transport on energy use in transport, told a conference last week that using biofuels in transport would have no impact on cutting emissions.
    In his submission to the Institute of Engineering and Technology’s climate change committee he warned that Britain produced 200m tonnes of CO2 a year in transport emissions.
    On current trends that will double by 2045 – whereas the government has pledged to reduce transport emissions to around 90m tonnes by that date.
    “We would need to plant a land area twice the size of Britain to get enough biofuel crops to halve our emissions,” said Kemp, professor of engineering at Lancaster University. “The numbers simply do not add up.”
    Kemp and Clift point out that the surging global interest in biofuels derives from a “false belief” among politicians that there must be a technical solution to climate change.
    Kemp said: ”Underlying all this is the assumption that we have to preserve the mobility and freedom to travel that we now enjoy at all costs.
    “However, when you look at the science of climate change it is clear there are no such simple solutions. Humanity has to accept that.”
    A similar message was this weekend emerging from environmentalists as they denounced the G8 industrialised nations for failing to take action on climate change at last week’s summit.
    Tony Juniper, director of Friends of the Earth, accused the G8 of being little more than a “talking shop”. He said: “The G8 has a record of putting the short term interests of rich countries before those of the environment and developing countries and this year was no exception.”
    FACTS OF ‘GREEN’ FUEL
    What are biofuels?
    Biofuels come from plants: bioethanol from sugars and starches, biodiesel mainly from rapeseed and palm oil. They are blended with normal fuels, making up about 5% of the product.
    What are the benefits?
    The carbon in biofuels comes from the atmosphere so when they burn that carbon is simply rereleased and there is no increase.
    What are the concerns?
    Biofuel crops take land from growing food and create pressure for deforestation. Burning forests generates vast amounts of CO2.




    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1909827.ece

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    Forum General Brian Baldwin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Top scientist says biofuels are scam

    Seeing as their are many alternatives to both fossil fuels and bio fuels I'd say we have a lot politicos and scientists pandering for no good reason. Sometimes the best answer is to go simple.
    Brian Baldwin

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    Default Re: Top scientist says biofuels are scam

    Welcome to the forums Bulldog. We're a pretty friendly bunch but we all believe in the TOS. Keep that in mind and feel free to join any discussions.
    Brian Baldwin

    Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil.... For I am the meanest S.O.B. in the valley.


    "A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in... And how many want out." - Tony Blair on America



    It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press.

    It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech.

    It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

    It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag.

    -Father Denis O'Brien of the United States Marine Corp.


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    Junior Member Bulldog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Top scientist says biofuels are scam

    Brian, thanks;
    My whole point in post this article was because of the following.

    Roland Clift will tell a seminar of the Royal Academy of Engineering that the plan to promote bioethanol and biodiesel produced from plants is a “scam”.
    Clift, professor of environmental technology at Surrey University, sits on the scientific advisory council of Defra, David Miliband’s environment department.
    He will tell the seminar that promoting the use of biofuels is likely to increase greenhouse gas emissions.
    Since I am new here please forgive me for asking but what is the meaning of TOS? I await your response and will hold all future postings.
    Last edited by Bulldog; June 11th, 2007 at 23:32.

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    Default Re: Top scientist says biofuels are scam

    Not that I'm any expert, but this is something I've developed a bit of an interest in lately, in that it seems there may be a silver lining for small-time farmers to continue to do what they are best at. I feel it safe to say that, as we are currently proceeding, yes, biofuels are something of a scam. However, as these articles show, I do believe there is yet hope.
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0301090431.htm
    Amazonian Terra Petra Can Transform Poor Soil Into Fertile
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0522210922.htm
    Novel Sugar-to hydrogen Technology Promises Transportation Fuel Independence

    I'm sure some here have seen some of the science shows dealing with terra petra, the results are truly amazing. Combining the ability to wean ourselves from oil with carbon sequestration AND improving poor soils so more food can be grown seems a triple-win situation we simply must look into further, imo.
    Last edited by MTStringer; June 12th, 2007 at 16:12.

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    Default Re: Top scientist says biofuels are scam

    Bulldog, the TOS stands for Terms of Service. It's the agreement that you will abide by forum rules here. All major forums have these in effect. Ours state that we wish for productive conversation and debate without name calling or untruths. So if you post a news story to prove a point you must always provide a link to the news story. And if someone disagrees with you and provides counter links to their side of the issue then be sure to read it.

    Basically if you believe in mutual respect and are considerate in how you approach the other members then you will rarely run afowl of the TOS. We're a mostly Conservative base here and so much of what we post is widely held as the norm for the members. But we do welcome differing view points and no one will be allowed to call you personal names if you don't agree with what they're saying. Nor will you be allowed to be disrepectful to them. Just basic stuff.

    If you look up to the area where you log-in to the site you will see a series of links for this site. One is to Register and right next to it is the Site TOS. You should read over it.

    Once again welcome to our site.
    Brian Baldwin

    Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil.... For I am the meanest S.O.B. in the valley.


    "A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in... And how many want out." - Tony Blair on America



    It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press.

    It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech.

    It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

    It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag.

    -Father Denis O'Brien of the United States Marine Corp.


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    Default Re: Top scientist says biofuels are scam

    Since I am new here please forgive me for asking but what is the meaning of TOS? I await your response and will hold all future postings.
    Funny... New? New to forums in what way?

    So, Bulldog, you actually live with Falcon then? Same house and all? Are you guys "brothers", the same person, or just schitzophrenic?

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    Default Re: Top scientist says biofuels are scam

    It's amazing what one can learn by digging a bit into IP addresses.
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    Default Re: Top scientist says biofuels are scam

    Yes Rick, he is my son and if you don't like it go pond sand. He wanted to learn somethings at is happening in the world and it took me over a year to talk him to come to this site. I thought it would do him some good, however with a comment like yours, I don't think he would get much information that would do really help him out. We have dicussed your comments and he like me are gone from this site and every fourm we go on from now on we are going to talk down you and this site. How do you live with yourself?

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    Default Re: Top scientist says biofuels are scam

    Falcon,
    It might have been a good idea to let us know that he was going to register using your computer(s). You see, people signing up with different user names tied to the same IP address send up red flags to us.

    Since this is the case, welcome Bulldog.

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    Default Re: Top scientist says biofuels are scam

    No problem, Falcon... But, you see, when we see same IP addresses from people who are "claiming to be different people" we wonder about it.

    Thus, the remarks about "being new" and having the same IP address as you.

    As for me "pounding sand" (or ponding sand, as you said) that was uncalled for, I asked a DIRECT question, and I'm still an administrator over here and I have a right to ask those questions of the posters here on this site... so if YOU don't like it, tough.

    Could have sent Ryan a note or something to let him know so you wouldn't arouse suspicions.
    Last edited by American Patriot; June 15th, 2007 at 17:37.
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    Default Re: Top scientist says biofuels are scam

    We have dicussed your comments and he like me are gone from this site and every fourm we go on from now on we are going to talk down you and this site. How do you live with yourself?

    Trying like hell to show your own diplomacy, Falcon? Let me try some of mine on your stupid ass now.

    You've already done this stuff, we've seen your posts in other places, so why stop now?

    What precisely IS your problem? Is it that you're so stupid and ignorant that you can't actually see what the problem is here? You are the problem.

    You're talking to one of the three site administrators. I have the authority on this site to ask whatever questions of posters I deem necessary. This is, America. You don't have the right to come in here and question our rules on this site, as it is a private site, nor do you have the right to stand there and get snotty with me because you don't like me for whatever your reasons are.

    You do not have the right to get upset when we question something you've done that WE feel is questionable. Sending a short note to Ryan would have solved the problem quickly, quietly and without the need for you to start insulting me as soon as you saw a message from me. In fact, had you sent Ryan a note I'd have not questioned a thing and there'd have been no need to.

    In the past you have gotten upset at several members of this site for no reason, other than your own lack of understanding. You got upset at Aplomb because she lost her computer connection in Chat one night. You got upset with me, because when you voiced the opinoin that "Condie Rice is an ass" I questioned you on it, and you've hated me ever since, and you stated blantantly that you stopped talking in the chat about it because you didn't want to discuss it. YOU, are the one that brought it up and I wanted to know your REASONING.

    Reasoning is something you apparently do not understand. Your "son" is how old? And you're 60-something? I find that interesting. I don't buy one bit of the BULLSHIT you posted above.

    Here is a right YOU DO have, the right to shut your mouth and leave the site if you don't like it here. I WILL question you, and anyone else I see on this site that is pulling something. The fact that your "son" or whomever he is is posting from your home is fine and one thing, but for you to lay into me and the site because I questioned it is really your problem and why I'm now pissed about it.

    All you had to say, was "Oh, that's my son posting". Instead, you made it a personal vendetta. That, Falcon is your problem. So... "Pound sand" yourself friend.

    I merely asked the question about connection Bulldog has to Falcon because of the IP address. The majority of the staff here saw it instantly, questioned the "Noob routine" and I was clairifying the question for them. I wasn't ANGRY about it, and I honestly didn't care all that much, but it was important enough for me to bring it up for the staff.

    I was NOT THE ONLY ONE QUESTIONING IT.

    YOU have no "rights" here, at all, other than those set out in the terms of service.

    You DO have the obligation to answer questions honestly, if you expect to be treated fairly and objectively.

    So far, you have failed MISERABLY at doing this, in the past year, with every stinking, stupid, idiotic comment you have made about me, or to me personally.

    Now, you have a couple of options.

    1) Answer me HONESTLY and without being a dickheaded fool by insulting my intelligence with another idiotic response about "how you're gone from the site" (yet AGAIN for the third time).

    2) shut the fuck up and leave the site and never come back if you're going to and stop coming back here every few months to find something pick at me about -- and DO EXPECT me to come after you with a lawyer if I fucking catch you out there "talking me down" - and asshole believe you me, I WILL DO IT.

    3) Sue me if you don't like what I said, and I dare you to do it you chickenshit, because I want to meet you face to face.

    Falcon, you are a smart mouthed, shithead from the Middle East who thinks that someone, probably me, owes you SOMETHING. I do not owe you SHIT, not even an explanation of why I tolerated you at first. I do not tolerate assholes, and you're one of the biggest ones that I've ever come across (I can name five others from Anomalies that come to mind, and other than two, you've got the others beat now.)

    I do NOT have to tolerate you, or your shit so, get the HELL off the site and don't respond at all to me.

    If you have something to say, you send it to Ryan and Brian and they will decide which one of them will terminate your account, or they can hand it off to me, which I hope they will because I certainly will be more than happy to shitcan your ass.

    You've got no further business with me, or this site. Be gone and stay gone.

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