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Thread: Suspected Missile Attack Against Airliner

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    Creepy Ass Cracka & Site Owner Ryan Ruck's Avatar
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    Default Suspected Missile Attack Against Airliner

    Sean,
    I noticed NEIN had up a piece about a suspected missile attack against a jet around LAX.

    Any more info on this?

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    Default Re: Suspected Missile Attack Against Airliner

    Ryan,

    Well, a radio station in Philadelphia (KYW 1060 AM) put the story up today on their website. Doug Hagmann also did Coast-to-Coast with George Noory last night - I'm positive this subject came up.

    I have been watching this carefully as well and note that I believe there is a small problem with the original story.


    In my investigation of this report I have found no evidence at all that American Airlines had a Flight 621 from LAX (Los Angeles) to ORD (Chicago). American has a regularly scheduled one-stop Flight numbered 798 (stops in Las Vegas, NV) and three other non-stop flights to Chicago (#1264, #1744 and #1890) but no Flight 621.


    However, there is one airline with something similar. America West has three flights from LAX to ORD

    America West 261
    America West 216
    America West 721

    I think what we have in these reports is one word in common (America for American) and two sets of numbers using the digits 6 - 2 - 1. There is also 721 which has one digit (7) where 6 is in the report.

    I have a suspicion that someone in making the original radio report might changed the name of airline and the flight number to protect the real pilot and the airline.

    There is one other possibility. The airline might also have been United Airlines which has a Flight # 651 LAX to ORD.

    There's an absolute dead silence from the airlines on this report.

    http://www.kyw1060.com/news_archives_detail.cfm?newsitemid=50753



    Friday, December 2, 2005



    Pilot Reports 'Missile' Fired at Jetliner Near LAX (11/28/05)

    FBI agents and Homeland Security officials spent the weekend investigating the report of a possible missile fired at an American Airlines plane taking off from Los Angeles International Airport.

    Sources tell ABC News the pilot of American Airlines Flight 621, en route to Chicago, radioed air traffic controllers after takeoff from LAX. He told them a missile had been fired at the aircraft and missed.

    The plane was over water when the pilot said he saw a smoke trail pass by the cockpit. FBI agents believe it was a flare or a bottle rocket, but say they may never know if that's what it actually was.


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    Forum General Brian Baldwin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suspected Missile Attack Against Airliner

    That is all very curious. If true; there's no way it would have been a bottle rocket. Even a large one. Maybe if they made it large enough.... But then it would be considered a missile.

    Brian
    Brian Baldwin

    Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil.... For I am the meanest S.O.B. in the valley.


    "A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in... And how many want out." - Tony Blair on America



    It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press.

    It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech.

    It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

    It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag.

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    Default Re: Suspected Missile Attack Against Airliner

    It gets better by the day... there is now an official, yet "Unclassified Daily Brief" being circuated by the Maryland Army National Guard on this report. It is pure disinformation, devoid of even one iota factual refutation or substance to the LAX incident.

    If you want to recieve a copy of this .pdf document, send an email to my NEIN Email addy.

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    Creepy Ass Cracka & Site Owner Ryan Ruck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suspected Missile Attack Against Airliner

    Sean,
    Thanks for the additional info!

    If you could, shoot me a copy of that PDF.

    I'd send you an e-mail but my Mozilla Thunderbird has gone wonky and won't let me open a new message window or even reply to e-mails…

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    Default Re: Suspected Missile Attack Against Airliner

    Ryan,

    Email with .pdf Inbound and hot.

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    Creepy Ass Cracka & Site Owner Ryan Ruck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suspected Missile Attack Against Airliner

    LOL!

    "Nothing to see here, move along. Move along please!"

    Thanks for getting that to me.

    Also, FYI, T-bird problem fixed now.

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    Default Re: Suspected Missile Attack Against Airliner

    More from the NEIN mainpage...


    Passenger Air Travel - At Risk From Missiles?


    5 December 2005: As we approach the busiest air travel season of the year, there appears to be a "growing private concern" over the safety of air travel, especially in the wake of a surface-to-air missile reported by the pilot of a passenger aircraft departing LAX the day after Thanksgiving. Federal officials have attempted to explain that a plume of smoke passing by the cockpit of a passenger jet traveling over the Santa Monica Bay at approximately 5,000 feet was "a flare or bottle rocket," and definitely not any form of missile. In fact, "rumor control" is already in progress on a variety of levels to avoid alerting the public to any potential threats to our airlines as we enter into the busy Christmas travel season. Despite the denials of this incident, today's issue of the HQ INTEL-ALERT Investigative Report & Newsletter offers first-hand accounts of incidents that relate to possible surface to air missile incidents, including a possible "practice run" involving boats in the Santa Monica Bay just days before the flight from LAX:

    On Tuesday night, November 22nd, 2005 around 9 PM, I was standing at the very end of the pier looking out directly west, when I noticed something unusual . A small speed boat with headlights on was zipping by at a very high rate of speed from the Santa Monica area southward about a 1/4 mile west of pier. As it came directly in front of the Venice pier the boat (still 1/4 mile out) stopped suddenly and turned off its lights. Then a couple minutes later the lights came back on and the boat proceeded very slowly southward toward the Marina Del Rey area, while staying about the same distance out to sea. When the boat came within proximity to the LAX departure zone it stopped, and the boats lights extinguished.

    I kept watching to see what was happening. About a minute later, I noticed off further to the south and west there was another boat and it flashed its lights, as if it was signaling the first boat. The first boat then flashed it lights. Then even further south, I noticed there was a THIRD boat. That boat flashed a green light a couple times. It al most looked like the 3 boats were setting up a triangulation and it made me a little suspicious because 9 PM seems to be a peak time for aircraft take off at LAX.

    My immediate thought was- what if these were terrorists setting up for a boat missile launch attack on a plane? After watching for about 15 to 20 more minutes, nothing happened and the boats didn’t light up or move, so I went back home. I seriously contemplated contacting the authorities about the boats- but didn’t because... I didn’t want to be seen as an “ alarmist.”

    But when I heard your report last night [on Coast to Coast AM] from Douglas Hagmann, I was in my car and nearly drove off the freeway!

    Also, this past Tuesday and Wednesday evenings the Los Angeles County Life Guards at Santa Monica & Marina Del Rey, and the Santa Monica Harbor patrol conducted a major plane crash drill in the Santa Monica Bay .

    NOT AN ISOLATED INCIDENT

    Yet another report - this time from a pilot - indicates that this is no isolated incident:

    I am an airplane mechanic for a major U.S. carrier with over 35 years of service and work as the shift supervisor at a major hub on the east coast. On September 15, 2005 at approximately 8:00 PM, I was listening to the company radio on the frequency that our pilots t al k to the company dispatchers when I heard the following di al og between one of our pilots and the dispatcher:

    PILOT: “I just heard an America West crew report that they had been ‘just missed’ by a surface to air missile."
    DISPATCHER: “I'll check and get back to you.”


    This is first hand from me, not hearsay, and I know what I heard and that it is correct. Although I am unsure of the approximate location of the airplane at the time of the incident, I am reasonably certain that it was east of the Mississippi and very probably in the northeast section of the country.

    I told a few other people about what I heard over the radio, but after time, you get tired of the crazy looks and ridicule, and just want keep your mouth shut.




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    Default Re: Suspected Missile Attack Against Airliner

    This Just In... someone with a conscience has broke this story wide open for us:

    It Was A Surface To Air Missile! Furthermore It Was A home-made Sam, What The FBI Is Calling An "IRPD" Or "Improvised Rocket Propelled Device".

    Somebody or somebody's are home-brewing SAM's in southern California!!!

    Actual text that I just recieved:

    All FBI field offices have classified memo – it was a home-made SAM per the memo, or “IRPD.”

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    Forum General Brian Baldwin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suspected Missile Attack Against Airliner

    I kind of figured it wasn't a bottle rocket. I'd say this kind of thing is just the proof we need to shut the borders down and start the search and export of illegals both latin and otherwise. But I really doubt that will happen.

    Brian
    Brian Baldwin

    Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil.... For I am the meanest S.O.B. in the valley.


    "A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in... And how many want out." - Tony Blair on America



    It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press.

    It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech.

    It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

    It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag.

    -Father Denis O'Brien of the United States Marine Corp.


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    Default Re: Suspected Missile Attack Against Airliner

    Well, I am here to tell one and all that it is nothing more than a matter of time.

    Our Intelligence Community, FBI and TSA are all FUBAR'ed and Homeland Security is a giant clusterfrack with all of us simply treading water and marking time for the next BOHICA.


    Proof?

    A week before (December 1) an Egyptian was detained over night at JFK International.

    He had shoes very much like attempted shoe-bomber Richard Reid.

    The shoes tested positive 5 times for TATP residue between the heel and the sole.

    The next day the guy is inexplicably released by the TSA and then the TSA remembers to inform the FBI about it.



    Now you know why FAM's were on high alert and busted caps so quickly on the idiot in Miami.

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    Default Re: Suspected Missile Attack Against Airliner

    That's just unreal Sean! Is there no accountablity anymore at those places?

    Sometimes I think .gov must want a huge attack to take place in order to give them the reason to attack back. Its not like it hasn't been done before. Ben Franklin used the incident of colonists throwing snowballs to help spur the revolution.

    Brian
    Brian Baldwin

    Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil.... For I am the meanest S.O.B. in the valley.


    "A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in... And how many want out." - Tony Blair on America



    It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press.

    It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech.

    It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

    It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag.

    -Father Denis O'Brien of the United States Marine Corp.


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    Default Re: Suspected Missile Attack Against Airliner

    I expect more will be forthcoming on this Egyptian. I think the Feds know where he is right now.That he was released is mindboggling in the extreme. None of the professionals I correspond with understand this at all.I am too mindnumbed by this to offer even speculation as to why.

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    Default Re: Suspected Missile Attack Against Airliner

    What Really Happened To AA Flight 612
    Posted: December 9, 2005
    1:00 a.m. Eastern

    © 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

    The rumor mill started humming Monday morning, Nov. 28, after ABC Radio aired the following report:


    FBI and Homeland Security agents spent part of the weekend investigating the report of a possible missile fired at a plane leaving Los Angeles international airport. ABC's Alex Stone has the details.

    ... the pilots radioed air-traffic controllers saying what appeared to be a rocket had been fired at the aircraft and missed as American Airlines Flight 621 was climbing over the water. It had just taken off from LAX. The plane was en route to Chicago ... When it landed, FBI agents spoke with the pilots. Sources say those agents now believe it was a flare or a bottle rocket that passed by and they don't think it was any threat to the aircraft.

    This report did not run for long, possibly no more than once or twice. Still, thousands of people heard it, and many of those were understandably suspicious when no other major media outlet picked up the story.

    Not satisfied with rumors, retired United Airline pilot, Ray Lahr, and aviation audio expert, Glen Schulze, decided to investigate. The pair have been cooperating in Lahr's ongoing Freedom Of Information Act suit in federal court against the CIA and the National Transportation Safety Board regarding the demise of TWA Flight 800. What they have found about the LAX flight is inconclusive, but intriguing, and deserves serious inquiry.

    For starters, the flight was AA 612 and not AA 621 as reported. Lahr and Schulze checked its progress using the LAX airport monitor. Those interested in doing the same can enter Nov. 26, 12:49, 20-mile range, and then click on "start."

    You will see every airplane aloft in the Los Angeles area on the map. In about a half minute, "AAL612" appears as a green aircraft crossing the shoreline. If you click on the aircraft, it will turn red, and the flight data will appear in a box to the right. Over the next few minutes, the aircraft turns south. At approximately 6,000 feet and off the coast of Redondo Beach, a new target will appear.

    "The unidentified target's altitude does some funny things," observes Glenn Schulze, "from a constant 1,500 feet to suddenly showing 7,500 feet where it remains, which is the same altitude as AA FL 612 at this point in AA FL 612's climb-out."

    According to Lahr, AA 612 seems "to split and become TWO! It remains TWO for a while, both targets moving together, then they separate, the mirror target fades, and AA 612 (thank God) is alone again, heading slightly south east."

    The unidentified target appears for 12 to 13 sweeps of the FAA LAX TRACON radar rotating at a 4.7-second sweep rate. "This target can not be easily explained away as a radar ghost or artifact or swamp gas," adds Schulze, "as it exists and tracks over the ground for almost 50 seconds as it travels along with AA FL 612. Dynamite evidence!"

    What makes the evidence particularly compelling is that the pilots apparently saw what the radar was reporting. Those who are interested in the pilot's commentary can go to the following site. The relevant conversation is at the very end of this segment, during the last minute. This conversation takes place several minutes after the incident and alludes to an earlier conversation.


    ATC: Flare or a rocket?

    AA 612: It looked more like a rocket.

    ATC: American 612, how far away was it from your position?

    AA 612: It was about half way between us and the coastline when we first called that last center guy.

    Whatever the pilot saw prompted enough concern for LAX officials to contact the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security. It also prompted a very serious report on ABC radio.

    The most comprehensive reporting on the subject appeared Dec. 3 in an LAX area newspaper called The South Bay Daily Breeze. The headline says it all: "Smoke Trail Wasn't Threat to Plane, Say Investigators."

    The article describes what the pilot saw as an "an unusual vapor trail," one that was "at least a mile below the airplane." FBI spokeswoman Laura Eimiller assured the readers that this presumed trail "absolutely posed no threat." This claim would be more reassuring had the FBI not also convinced the reporter that "whatever left the vapor trail did not appear on radar, and the pilot never reported seeing any kind of projectile."

    The existing evidence would seem to refute all of those claims. The pilots saw not a vapor trail, but a "flare or a rocket." They saw it when the plane was no higher than 6,000 feet. Anything "at least a mile below them" would likely be swimming. The radar did pick something up, and the pilots considered the event sufficiently alarming to report it.

    A veteran Airline Pilots Association safety investigator, Lahr was once much more likely to accept aviation authorities at their word. Having spent the last several years fighting them for information in the federal courts, he has grown increasingly skeptical.

    The FBI may have its reason for quieting fears, Lahr understands, but as the distorted investigation of TWA Flight 800 has shown, a pacified population is a vulnerable one.
    Last edited by Ryan Ruck; December 10th, 2005 at 22:38. Reason: Edited to fix format.

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    Default Re: Suspected Missile Attack Against Airliner

    Sean,
    Been following a thread over on FR about the article you posted above.

    There have been some good points from two groups. One group says that the PASSUR site only shows transponder returns for tracking and that whatever popped up was some sort of artifact. The other group says that PASSUR uses both transponder data and active radar data and, there is no way it was a coincidence that a "ghost track" shows up at the exact same time and place as the pilots of the plane reported an incident as occurring.

    Any word on which group would be correct? Does PASSUR use only transponder data? Or does it use transponder data (transponders do send out a signal in response to being "pinged") plus active radar returns?

    I am leaning toward the second group. Too coincidental for there to be some sort of glitch in the tracking data for the exact flight right at the same time as the pilots reported seeing the missile/rocket.

    There is also something else interesting in that thread. One poster made a post detailing a similar incident on September 15th with American West Flight 17 out of JFK. Here is the post:
    I was having fun with this and remembered there was an earlier incident out of JFK on September 15th with American West flight 17 (source). You can view the same images for JFK airport here http://www4.passur.com/jfk.html That plane took off at 6:49 PM (18:49) and reported an incident over Colt's Neck, NJ. If you follow flight 17 out of JFK, notice at 18:57:03 and 15,000 feet (just past Colt's Neck, NJ) something unusual happens there too. Set the map range at 40 miles.
    I checked out the PASSUR data for the time and date the poster describes and sure enough, a double track exactly like that which occurred with AA612 happened!

    WAY too much coincidence all around for me!

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    Default Re: Suspected Missile Attack Against Airliner

    Ryan,

    I was involved in the Colts Neck, NJ investigation.

    I called the site where the missile in that incident originated. I confirmed from the staff of the Dorbrook Farms recreation facility (part of the Monmouth County Park System) that amateur rocket/missileers were active on that day. Launches occured. The incident with America West FLT 17 resulted in a long hold on further flight departures until that issue was rectified.

    Regarding PASSUR data:

    PASSUR tracks ALL aircraft with active fusion of data from
    • Active aircraft transponder:
    • IFR
    • VFR
    • Helos
    • Other means not publicly available like NEXRAD and Mode S ATC radar data.
    The Free republic posters who claim that the PASSUR IFF interogation is the only data input to the PASSUR system is totally incorrect. PASSUR ALSO HAS AN INTEGRAL COMPONENT THAT IS KNOWN AS ASR OR AIRPORT SURVEILLANCE RADAR.


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    Default Re: Suspected Missile Attack Against Airliner

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Ruck
    I checked out the PASSUR data for the time and date the poster describes and sure enough, a double track exactly like that which occurred with AA612 happened!

    WAY too much coincidence all around for me!
    I did the same track, it sure it interesting.

    -Mal

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