World War Three Thread....

[Ryan Ruck]

NTSB just seems redundant at this point. I've always seen NTSB as coming in to figure out why an aircraft has crashed when the cause is unknown. We know it was shot down, the question is by what and by whom.

I figure CIA would be better informed on weapon systems from other nations than the FBI would. I'm sure they've got their specialists but I can't imagine them being as trained on self propelled SAM systems as much as the CIA might. Maybe MANPAD systems but theater air defense systems seems like a stretch. I could be mistaken though...

[American Patriot]

You have a point. They are a "safety board" thus, there's not much they can conclude except that you shouldn't point armed missiles at aircraft flying by.

Fred Thompson on "Outnumbered" right now. Ripping Obabaler up.

[American Patriot]

Obama: Downing of Malaysia Airliner an 'Outrage of Unspeakable Proportions'




President Barack Obama speaks about the situation in Ukraine in the press briefing room of the White House, July 18, 2014.

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• Q&A with Steve Herman: Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17
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VOA News
Last updated on: July 18, 2014 10:58 AM

U.S. President Barack Obama says the deaths of the 298 people aboard the Malaysia Airlines plane that went down over eastern Ukraine are an "outrage of unspeakable proportions."
Speaking at the White House Friday, Obama said evidence indicates the plane was shot down by a surface-to-air missile launched from an area controlled by Russian-backed separatists.
He called for an international investigation into the incident saying Russia and the separatists must adhere to an immediate cease-fire.
The U.S. leader said the event underscores " it is time for peace and security to be restored in Ukraine."
OSCE monitors
The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe has sent about 30 monitors to the Malaysia Airlines wreckage site in eastern Ukraine, saying pro-Russian rebels controlling the region granted them safe passage.
World leaders have called for a full investigation into the incident, which killed all 298 people on board the flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. U.S. officials say that the plane was brought down Thursday by a surface-to-air missile, but that it is not clear who fired it.
Speaking during an emergency U.N. Security Council meeting, the U.S. ambassador to the U.N. Samantha Power said the missile system was likely operated from a "separatist-held location in eastern Ukraine." She also said technical assistance from Russia cannot be ruled out.
Faulting Russia for supplying the separatists with high-powered arms, training and other assistance, Power called for Russia to help de-escalate the fighting between rebels and Ukrainian government forces. She told the U.N. Security Council, “This war can be ended. Russia can end this war. Russia must end this war.”
Ukraine's government has accused the pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine of shooting the plane down, while the rebels blamed government forces.
Ukraine's ambassador to the United Nations, Yuriy Sergeyev, had said Ukraine would present evidence to the Council showing Russia's military was involved in the crash.
Malaysia Airlines says the route where the incident occurred is commonly used for Europe-to-Asia flights.
Most of the passengers on the Boeing 777 aircraft were Dutch, and many were scientists heading to an international AIDS conference in Australia.
Most bodies located
Emergency workers say more than 180 bodies have been located. There are conflicting reports about whether the plane's two black boxes, for audio and video, had been recovered.
The incident sent debris and body parts over a wide area of eastern Ukraine. Bodies fell in fields and inside and outside of village homes.
Malaysia Airlines said people from at least 10 countries were on board the plane, including 189 from the Netherlands, 44 Malaysians and 27 Australians. Another 12 were Indonesian, nine were British and about a dozen others were from Belgium, Germany, the Philippines, Canada or New Zealand. Four passengers' nationalities have not been determined.
A top Malaysia Airlines official said the company will pay $5,000 per passenger to relatives to cover initial expenses.
U.S. intelligence officials said the plane likely was targeted deliberately by someone who may have mistaken it for a Ukrainian military transport plane.
Malaysia Airlines said it no longer will fly planes over Ukrainian airspace, instead routing its aircraft farther south over Turkey.
Malaysian Transport Minister Liow Tiong Lai speaks at a press conference near Kuala Lumpur International Airport in Sepang July 18, 2014.


Malaysian Transport Minister Liow Tiong Lai told reporters Friday in Kuala Lumpur that the purposeful downing of a passenger jet violates international law and would be an "outrage against human decency."
He said Malaysia is sending a 62-person disaster team to Amsterdam to assist with support to victims' families.
​Many of the passengers were traveling to an international AIDS conference in Melbourne, Australia.
The International AIDS Society, host of the conference scheduled to begin Sunday in Melbourne, has released a statement expressing "sincere sadness" and condolences to the victims' families.
The United States called for a cease-fire to facilitate the investigation, as did German Chancellor Angela Merkel. “There are many indications that the plane was shot down, so we have to take things very seriously,” she said.
The plane had a clean maintenance record, a Malaysia Airlines official said Friday. Huib Gorter, its European vice president, said “all … systems on the aircraft were functioning normally” before it lost contact, the news agency AFP reported Friday.
Missile targeted plane

VOA's Defense Department correspondent said that U.S. officials confirmed the plane was hit by a missile, but that it wasn't clear who fired the missile or whether it came from Russian or Ukrainian territory.
An official said the plane likely was targeted by someone who may have mistaken it for a military transport plane.
VOA Southeast Asia correspondent Steve Herman, who is covering the crash, said there is growing consensus that the aircraft was shot down.
"This does appear, according to U.S. and Ukrainian intelligence officials, to be a shootdown of the aircraft, perhaps mistaken for a Ukrainian military aircraft. And there's no indication whatsoever that there was pilot error or some sort of mechanical fault that brought down MH17 over eastern Ukraine at this point," said Herman.
Ukraine has accused pro-Russia militants of shooting down the plane.
Putin calls for investigation
Russian President Vladimir Putin blamed the incident on Ukraine, citing its offensive against the rebels that began two weeks ago.
In a phone call with Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte, Putin demanded a “thorough and unbiased” investigation into the airliner's downing, the Kremlin said Friday.
“The head of the Russian state underlined that the tragedy yet again highlighted the need for the swiftest peaceful solution to the acute crisis in Ukraine and noted that a thorough and unbiased investigation into all the circumstances of the air catastrophe was needed,” it said.
Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott also demanded an investigation, calling Russia's response to the crash "deeply, deeply unsatisfactory." He said the idea that Russia can deny any responsibility for the crash because it happened on Ukrainian soil "does not stand up to any serious scrutiny." The crash, he said, "is not an accident, it's a crime."
But former Cuban president Fidel Castro sided with Putin in attributing the crash to the “warmonger” government of Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko.
Cuba, Russia's longtime ally and former dependent, "cannot go without expressing its repudiation over the action of such an anti-Russian, anti-Ukrainian and pro-imperialist government," Castro, 87, wrote in a 270-word missive published in official Cuban media Friday, Reuters reported.
Obama offers condolences

Late Thursday, President Barack Obama telephoned Netherlands Prime Minister Mark Rutte to offer condolences. White House officials say the two leaders talked about the need to ensure that international investigators have unimpeded and immediate access to the crash site.
Obama also spoke with Poroshenko and Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak, who said that he could not confirm the plane was shot down, but that the pilot did not send out any distress call.
A NATO statement said that much remains unknown about the crash circumstances, but that Russian-backed separatists have created an increasingly dangerous situation.
Various U.S. and international airlines, including Malaysia Airlines, say they will avoid the airspace over the border between Russia and eastern Ukraine.
Crisis in eastern Ukraine

Eastern Ukraine has been the scene of fighting between Ukrainian forces and separatists who have declared independence in some regions with the aim of joining Russia.
Separatists say they have shot down Ukrainian military planes in recent weeks, and Kyiv accused Russia of shooting down a Ukrainian military aircraft Wednesday.
The United States imposed fresh sanctions on Russia Wednesday for failing to take steps to de-escalate the crisis in eastern Ukraine and for providing weapons and support to the rebels.
This is the second major tragedy for Malaysia Airlines this year. Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 was traveling from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing on March 8 when it disappeared with 239 people on board. It did not send out a distress call and is believed to have crashed in the southern Indian Ocean. Searchers have found no trace of the plane.

[Ryan Ruck]

You have a point. They are a "safety board" thus, there's not much they can conclude except that you shouldn't point armed missiles at aircraft flying by.

Fred Thompson on "Outnumbered" right now. Ripping Obabaler up.

What a wasted opportunity. There was a distinct lack of:

[American Patriot]

http://www.independent.ie/life/trave...-30441563.html

VIDEO: The moment flight MH17 disappeared from Flightradar24

Contact was lost with the plane around 15.21 BST, when it was flying at 33,000 feet.

Pól Ó Conghaile


Published 18/07/2014|09:32

FlightAware.com image showing the MH17 flight path

This is the moment MH17 disappeared from flightradar24.


Video grabbed from the flight tracking app shows the moment contact was lost with MH17 (shown in red, below). At 15.21 BST, the aircraft was flying at 33,000 feet.

Moments later, all contact was lost.


The airline is reported to have been struck by a surface-to-air missile. It fell from the skies shortly afterwards, leaving a trail of devastation across the fields of Eastern Ukraine.


298 people are reported to have lost their lives in the tragedy.


Flight tracker apps like Flightradar24, FlightTrack and Flight Aware have boomed in popularity in recent years, bringing live flight information - such as location, altitude, speed and routes - into the pockets of smartphone users around the world.






The above screengrab shows empty airspace over Eastern Ukraine, which has been closed until further notice. Airlines from all over the world have altered their flight plans in the wake of the disaster.


The app has also tweeted the final logs of MH17. Last positions of #MH17 directly from Flightradar24 database. Signal was lost around 13:21 UTC at 33,000 feet. pic.twitter.com/6gz8ECoJxI
— Flightradar24 (@flightradar24) July 17, 2014

[American Patriot]

Looting at jet crash scene may hamper investigation

It’s still unclear who will take the lead on the investigation into Malaysia Airlines flight 17. Meanwhile rescue workers appear unorganized and passenger belongings have been looted. (USA NOW, USA TODAY)

Filip Warwick and Jabeen Bhatti, Special for USA TODAY 1:16 p.m. EDT July 18, 2014

(Photo: Filip Warwick for USA TODAY)

NORTH OF GRABOVO, Ukraine — The black handbag lay on the field turning muddy from the rain. A beige wallet lay next to it, open, near credit cards and photographs carefully lined up next to each other on the wet grass, ordinary pictures of loved ones: son, daughter, father and mother.


The scene was replicated across the field – camera holders missing cameras, wallets missing cash, cosmetics and other items scattered in random patterns after a jet disintegrated and fell from the sky.


A day after a Malaysian airliner was shot down by a surface-to-air missile, killing all 298 aboard, twisted wreckage and mangled bodies remained uncollected as emergency personnel searched the site Friday.


In some areas of this field, near the small town of Grabovo in a remote eastern Ukrainian farming region close to the Russian border, backpacks and other carry-on luggage were grouped together. It was clear that looters had opened and rifled through some of them.


As Ukraine and Russia, along with the pro-Russian separatists who have taken control of the region, fight over who gets to manage the scene, the recovery operation has become chaotic, and the typical procedures used to aid the investigation into the crash have been compromised.

Rain fell Friday afternoon over bodies that remained on the field, and they weren't covered up to protect them. Such scenes are normally cordoned off, but men randomly walked the area, finding an item or a limb, then staking the ground to mark the site with a stick that had a white piece of fabric twisted around it.


Absent was the "grid" walk at such scenes, where organized teams in a line walk a grid pattern to make sure nothing is left uncovered. Also missing was any organized way of categorizing the debris — description, location, photo — that is standard procedure for a crime scene.


Nor was there any effort to secure personal items, such as a Winnie the Pooh bear or a Minnie Mouse lunchbox, that belonged to victims so they could be returned to their families.


Many of the dead have been identified through passports found at the scene, where some victims were miraculously intact. Others were too mangled or burned to be identifiable.

Beside a body of a man, a watch was separated from its strap.(Photo: Filip Warwick for USA TODAY)

Passengers strapped to their seats were found in contorted positions. Next to one young man was a watch separated from its strap. It's display showed 15:54.


Residents said they were in shock over what happened. Some said they cried Thursday as they rushed out to help, only to realize they were helpless to save anyone. Several took photographs of the scene.


Alexander Aleksandrovich and his teenage grandson, Cyril, said a part of the jet's body and the engine just missed their house and landed nearby in a charred pit.


They attributed the miss to a large Orthodox Christian cross they erected on their land last year. "As my wife told me, (the plane) was heading towards (the house),'" Aleksandrovich said. "She came out of the town to see the plane coming. It started to fragment and crashed across the road.


"It was by the grace of God we are still alive – what other kind of power could have pushed it aside so that it didn't fall on peaceful people. The cross protected us – we survived."


Cyril said his father and mother had to be taken to the hospital because of exposure to the jet fuel's fumes, which is highly toxic.


Though the world's focus is on the tragic end for 298 passengers, residents said the separatists' fight for autonomy from the national government in Kiev shouldn't get lost.
"Remember, we are still fighting here," Aleksandrovich said. "Let's not forget about that."


Bhatti reported from Berlin.

Resident Alexander Aleksandrovich said it was by the grace of God that the airliner did not fall on his home. The words on the cross read, "Redeem and protect."(Photo: Filip Warwick for USA TODAY)

[American Patriot]

World calls for Ukraine cease-fire after crash

By By Peter Leonard And Dmitry Lovetsky July 18, 2014

---

ROZSYPNE, Ukraine (AP) — World leaders called for an immediate cease-fire in eastern Ukraine on Friday and demanded speedy access for international investigators to the crash site of the Malaysia Airlines jetliner shot down over the country's battlefields.


The strong words came amid the contrasting images of emergency workers and off-duty coal miners fanning out across picturesque sunflower fields searching for charred pieces of wreckage from the Boeing 777.


The attack Thursday afternoon killed 298 people from nearly a dozen nations — including vacationers, students and a large contingent of scientists heading to an AIDS conference in Australia.


President Barack Obama called for an immediate cease-fire between Ukrainian government forces and pro-Russia separatists. He also called for a credible investigation.
"The eyes of the world are on eastern Ukraine, and we are going to make sure that the truth is out," Obama said at the White House.


U.S. intelligence authorities said a surface-to-air missile brought down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 as it traveled from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. U.S. Ambassador Samantha Power told the U.N. Security Council in New York on Friday the missile was likely fired from a rebel-held area near the Russian border.


The Ukrainian government in Kiev, the separatist pro-Russia rebels they are fighting and the Russia government that Ukraine accuses of supporting the rebels all denied shooting the plane down. Moscow also denies backing the rebels.


After holding an emergency session, the U.N. Security Council called for "a full, thorough and independent international investigation" into the downing of the plane.


Russian President Vladimir Putin said both sides in the Ukrainian conflict should put down their weapons and hold peace talks. On Thursday, Putin blamed Ukraine for the crash, saying Kiev was responsible for the unrest in its Russian-speaking eastern regions. But he didn't accuse Ukraine of shooting the plane down and didn't address the key question of whether Russia gave the rebels such a powerful missile.


The Ukrainian Interior Ministry released a video purporting to show a truck carrying the Buk missile launcher it said was used to fire on the plane with one of its four missiles apparently missing. The ministry said the footage was filmed by a police surveillance squad at dawn Friday as the truck was heading to the city of Krasnodon toward the Russian border.


There was no way to independently verify the video.


Ukraine's state aviation service closed the airspace Friday over two border regions gripped by separatist fighting — Donetsk and Luhansk — and Russian airlines suspended all flights over Ukraine.


Access to the sprawling crash site remained difficult and dangerous. The road into it from Donetsk, the largest city in the region, was marked by five rebel checkpoints, with document checks at each.


A commission of around 30 people, mostly officials representing the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, traveled to the crash site Friday afternoon in the first such visit there by an international delegation.


"No black boxes have been found ... we hope that experts will track them down and create a picture of what has happened," Donetsk separatist leader Aleksandr Borodai said.


Yet earlier Friday, an aide to the military leader of Borodai's group said authorities had recovered eight out of 12 recording devices. Since planes usually have two black boxes — one for recording flight data and the other for recording cockpit voices — it was not clear what the aide was referring to. It was possible he was referring to a variety of computer systems.


The crash site was spread out over fields between two villages in eastern Ukraine — Rozsypne and Hrabove. In the distance, the thud of Grad missile launchers being fired could be heard Friday morning.


In the sunflower fields around Rozsypne, 40 kilometers (25 miles) from the Russian border, lines of men disappeared into thick, tall growth that reached over their heads. One fainted after finding a body. Another body was covered in a coat.


About 70 off-duty coal miners joined the search, their faces still sooty from work.


In Hrabove, several miles away, large numbers of sticks, some made from tree branches, were affixed with red or white rags to mark spots where body parts were found.


Andrei Purgin, a leader of the pro-Russian separatists, told The Associated Press that after consultations with international diplomats and a former Ukrainian president, a decision has been reached for bodies to be taken to the government-controlled Black Sea city of Mariupol.


Smashed watches and mobile phones, charred boarding passes and passports were among the debris.


Large chunks of the plane, which bore the airline's red, white and blue markings, lay strewn over one field. The cockpit and one turbine lay a kilometer (a half-mile) apart, and the tail landed 10 kilometers (six miles) away. One rebel militiaman in Rozsypne told the AP the plane's fuselage showed signs of being struck by a projectile.


The area has seen heavy fighting between government troops and pro-Russia separatists, and rebels had bragged about shooting down two Ukrainian military jets Wednesday in the region.


Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov dismissed Kiev's accusations that Moscow could be behind the attack.


"Regarding those claims from Kiev that we allegedly did it ourselves: I have not heard a truthful statement from Kiev for months," he told the Rossiya 24 television channel.


He also said Russia has no intention of getting its hands on the plane's black boxes and added they should be given to international aviation organizations.


Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk described the attack as an "international crime" whose perpetrators should be punished in an international tribunal.


Malaysian Transport Minister Liow Tiong Lay insisted again Friday that the airline's path was an internationally approved route and denied accusations the airline was trying to save fuel and money by taking a more direct flight path across Ukraine.


Aviation authorities in several countries, including the FAA in the United States, had issued previous warnings not to fly over parts of Ukraine after Russia annexed the Crimean Peninsula in March. Within hours of the crash Thursday, several airlines announced they were avoiding parts of Ukrainian airspace.

[American Patriot]

http://thehill.com/policy/transporta...r-downed-plane

GOP Rep. Turner: ‘Putin bears all the responsibility’ for downed plane

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By Keith Laing - 07/18/14 11:32 AM EDT
A member of the House Armed Services Committee said Friday that Russian President Vladimir Putin “bears all the responsibility” for apparently shooting down a commercial airliner over Ukraine on Thursday.


Putin has said that Ukraine bears responsibility for shooting down the jetliner, a Malaysia Airlines flight that was carrying nearly 300 people.


However, Rep. Mike Turner (R-Ohio) said in an interview with Bloomberg Television that the Russian leader was really the one to blame for the downed jetliner.



“I will tell you that we have to put it in context that two helicopters, a Ukrainian transport plane and a fighter jet had already been taken down in this area,” Turner said.

“And certainly all of the blame points to Vladimir Putin.

“He has opened a war zone in the middle of the Russian area that borders upon Ukraine,” Turner continued. “With those responsibilities of having Ukraine become a war zone, I think Vladimir Putin bears all the responsibility.”


Ukrainian officials have alleged that the flight was shot down by Russian separatists who have been battling Kiev in a dispute over the country's shared border with Russia.
Vice President Biden also suggested on Thursday the plane was intentionally "blown out of the sky" during a speech on Thursday afternoon.


Putin has called the incident a “terrible tragedy” and disavowed blame for the plane being shot down.


"I would like to note that this tragedy would not have occurred if there were peace in that country, or in any case, if hostilities had not resumed in southeast Ukraine," he said in a statement early Friday in Russia. "And certainly, the government over whose territory it occurred is responsible for this terrible tragedy."


Turner said did not believe the Russian leader’s denials, however.


“Vladimir Putin needs to be held accountable,” he said. “This plane came down as a result of Vladimir Putin deciding that he was going to open a war zone in Europe. He needs to pay a price for that and certainly all of our allies need to come together jointly.”

[American Patriot]

Confusion Over Whether Malaysian Airlines Black Boxes Found

• By: TWC News Staff & Associated Press
• Updated 7:18 AM
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TWC News: Confusion Over Whether Malaysian Airlines Black Boxes Found
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UKRAINE—A pro-Russia rebel leader says no black boxes have been found in the scattered wreckage of the Malaysia Airlines plane that was shot down over eastern Ukraine, conflicting with a statement made by an aide to a rebel military leader.A Malaysian Airlines Flight with nearly 300 people on-board crashed in eastern Ukraine Thursday afternoon.
"No black boxes have been found. We hope that experts will track them down and create a picture of what has happened," said Separatist leader Aleksandr Borodai.

Previously, an aide to rebel military leader Igor Girkin said authorities had recovered eight out of 12 recording devices.

Meanwhile, a Ukranian official says 181 bodies have been located so far at the crash site. He the bodies will be taken for identification to Kharkiv, a government-controlled city 170 miles north of the crash site.
Vice President Joe Biden said the U.S. has now confirmed the crash was not an accident.

"A Malaysian aircraft, heading from western Europe to Kuala Lumpur, as it crossed or as it neared the border of Ukraine and Russia, apparently, I say apparently because I don't have the actual, we don't have all the details yet, we want to be sure of what I say, apparently had been shot down. Shot down, not an accident. Blown out of the sky,” said Biden.
A Ukraine official reported that the plane was shot down by a ground-to-air missile. The pro-Russia rebels in eastern Ukraine are denying that they shot down the plane. The Ukrainian government also said it wasn't responsible.

The Boeing 777 was traveling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumper when it went down in the border region between Russia and Ukraine.Ukraine's president is calling the downing an act of terrorism, and he wants an international investigation into the crash. A separatist leader said he doesn't know whether rebel forces have the type of missile launcher that can shoot down a target at 33,000 feet, but he said even if they did, they had no fighters who could operate it.
Russian President Vladimir Putin says Ukraine bears responsibility for crash of Malaysian airliner. The Kremlin quotes Putin as telling a meeting of his economic advisers, "this tragedy would not have happened if there were peace'' in Ukraine and military actions had not been renewed.
Ukraine's security services say they've intercepted phone conversations that show the rebels were responsible.
Malaysia's prime minister says his country has not been able to verify what downed the jetliner. He says the plane did not make any distress call before it went down and the flight route had been declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organization.
Shortly after 2 p.m. Thursday President Barack Obama took a moment to speak about the crash.
"The United States will offer any assistance we can to determine what happened and why. As a country thoughts and prayers are with all of the passengers' families, wherever they call home," said Obama.

- See more at: http://charlotte.twcnews.com/content....yTb0Xl6u.dpuf

[American Patriot]

http://daily.bhaskar.com/article/WOR...84713-NOR.html

[American Patriot]

Obama condemns Russia after airliner downed in Ukraine

By Anton Zverev
HRABOVE Ukraine Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:41pm EDT


Loved ones of passengers aboard the Malaysia Airlines flight. Slideshow








(Reuters) - U.S. President Barack Obama demanded Russia stop supporting separatists in eastern Ukraine after the downing of a Malaysian airline by a surface-to-air missile he said was fired from rebel territory raised the prospect of more sanctions on Moscow.


At least one American was among the almost 300 killed, he said, a revelation that raises the stakes in a pivotal incident in deteriorating relations between Russia and the West.


Calling it "an outrage of unspeakable proportions", Obama stopped short of directly blaming Russia for the incident but warned that he was prepared to tighten economic sanctions. He echoed international calls for a rapid and credible investigation and ruling out U.S. military intervention.


But, noting the global impact of the crash, with victims from 11 countries across four continents, he said the stakes were high for Europe, a clear call for it to follow the more robust sanctions on Russia already imposed by Washington.


Russia, whom Obama said was letting the rebels bring in weapons, has expressed anger at implications it was to blame, saying people should not prejudge the outcome of the inquiry.


There were no survivors from the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, a Boeing 777. The United Nations said 80 of the 298 aboard were children. The deadliest attack on a commercial airliner, it scattered bodies over miles of rebel-held territory near the border with Russia.


Makeshift white flags marked where bodies lay in corn fields and among the debris. Others, stripped bare by the force of the crash, had been covered by polythene sheeting weighed down by stones, one marked with a flower in remembrance.
One pensioner told how a woman smashed though her roof: "There was a howling noise and everything started to rattle. Then objects started falling out of the sky," said Irina Tipunova, 65. "And then I heard a roar and she landed in the kitchen."
An American-Dutch dual national was confirmed aboard - more than half those who died were Dutch - and U.S. investigators prepared to head to Ukraine to assist in the investigation.
Staff from Europe's OSCE security body visited the site but complained that they did not have the full access they wanted.
The scale of the disaster could prove a turning point for international pressure to resolve the crisis in Ukraine, which has killed hundreds since pro-Western protests toppled the Moscow-backed president in Kiev in February and Russia annexed the Crimea peninsula a month later.
"This outrageous event underscores that it is time for peace and security to be restored in Ukraine," Obama said, adding that Russia had failed to use its influence to curb rebel violence.


While the West has imposed sanctions on Russia over Ukraine, the United States has been more aggressive than the European Union. Analysts say the response of Germany and other EU powers to the incident - possibly imposing more sanctions - could be crucial in deciding the next phase of the standoff with Moscow.
Some commentators even recalled Germany's sinking of the Atlantic liner Lusitania in 1915, which helped push the United States into World War One, but outrage in the West at Thursday's carnage is not seen as leading to military intervention.
The U.N. Security Council called for a "full, thorough and independent international investigation" into the downing of the plane and "appropriate accountability" for those responsible.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel said it was too early to decide on further sanctions before it was known exactly what had happened to the plane. Britain said the facts must be established by a UN-led investigation before additional sanctions were seriously considered.
Kiev and Moscow immediately blamed each other for the disaster, triggering a new phase in their propaganda war.
Ukraine has closed air space over the east of the country as Malaysia Airlines defended its use of a route that some other carriers had been avoiding.
More than half of the dead passengers, 189 people, were Dutch. Twenty-nine were Malaysian, 27 Australian, 12 Indonesian, nine British, four German, four Belgian, three Filipino, one America, one Canadian, one New Zealand. Several were unidentified and some may have had dual citizenship. The 15 crew were Malaysian.
A number of those on board were travelling to an international AIDS conference in Melbourne, including Joep Lange, an influential Dutch expert.
"We lost somebody who wanted to make the world a better place," said his friend Marcel Duyvestijn.
"TRAGIC DAY, TRAGIC YEAR"
The loss of MH17 is the second devastating blow for Malaysia Airlines this year, following the mysterious disappearance of Flight MH370 in March, which vanished with 239 passengers and crew on board on its way from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing.
In Malaysia, there was a sense of disbelief that another airline disaster could strike so soon.
"This is a tragic day, in what has already been a tragic year, for Malaysia," Prime Minister Najib Razak said.
International air lanes had been open in the area, though only above 32,000 feet. The Malaysia plane was flying 1,000 feet higher, at the instruction of Ukrainian air traffic control, although the airline had asked to fly at 35,000 feet.
Relatives gathered at the airport in Kuala Lumpur and the Netherlands declared a day of national mourning, without apportioning blame. [Id:nL6N0PT227]
TRADING BLAME
Ukraine accused pro-Moscow militants of firing a long-range, Soviet-era SA-11 ground-to-air missile. U.S. officials said that they saw this as possibly the most likely cause of the disaster.
Russian President Vladimir Putin blamed Kiev for renewing its offensive against rebels two weeks ago after a ceasefire failed to hold. The Kremlin leader called it a "tragedy" but did not say who he thought had brought the Boeing 777 down.
He also called for a "thorough and unbiased" investigation and for a ceasefire to allow for negotiations.
Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, who had stepped up an offensive in the east this month, spoke to Obama and sought to rally world opinion behind his cause.
"The external aggression against Ukraine is not just our problem but a threat to European and global security," he said.
Russia, which Western powers accuse of trying to destabilise Ukraine to maintain influence over its old Soviet empire, has accused Kiev's leaders of mounting a fascist coup. It says it is holding troops in readiness to protect Russian-speakers in the east - the same rationale it used for taking over Crimea.

[American Patriot]

Steve LeVine Quartz 2:29 PM ET

When Pro-Russian ‘Rebels’ Become ‘Terrorists’

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This story has been updated with US intelligence report that a surface-to-air missile was fired at the airliner.
The crash of a Malaysian Airlines jet over Ukraine—possibly shot down by a missile—threatens Russia at a time it is already tottering economically and diplomatically.

Author

Steve LeVine, Quartz's Washington correspondent, writes about the intersection of energy, technology and geopolitics, a juncture of some of the most important and quickly developing events and trends on the planet. Most recently, LeVine founded and ran The Oil and the Glory, a blog on energy and ... Full Bio

At this stage, conclusions as to the reason for the crash, which killed 295 people, are conjecture. Just four months after another Malaysian airliner vanished without a trace, no one is likely able to credibly assert yet what happened today over Donetsk. But fingers are pointing primarily at the Moscow-backed separatists, who have shot down several Ukraine government planes in recent months, including one they may have downed yesterday.
This is why the crash places Putin—the separatists’ idol and suspected patron—in a crisis of a gravity he has rarely faced. If it turns out that the separatists shot down the passenger jet, the incident almost certainly will become a tipping point in marking them as terrorists and not mere rebels. To the degree he continues to support them, Putin himself risks shifting to dangerous new diplomatic terrain and harsh new sanctions by a West united against him to a degree it has been at no time since the Cold War. He will be seen as backing an indefensible rogue element.
Kenneth Yalowitz, a retired senior US diplomat who served several tours in the former Soviet Union, told Quartz in an email exchange:

“It is early days in determining responsibility for this disaster. But, yes, if the separatists did this using a Russian missile, or the Russians themselves did it, there will be serious diplomatic consequences. This would likely convince the doubters in the EU to move forward with tougher sanctions against Russia and it could lead to tougher US sanctions. Russia’s deniability of direct support for the rebels would be demolished, making Putin’s international position more difficult.”

Reports are that the passengers included some 55 Dutch, 23 Americans, and nine Britons. Matthew Rojanski, director of the Kennan Institute in Washington, told Quartz that new sanctions are certain. He said:

“Still not enough hard info, but this does seem like a sophisticated weapons system and an intentional downing (even if a case of mistaken identity—i.e. the rebels thought it was a Ukrainian transport plane). This is going to have massive repercussions for Russia-West relations, probably yielding a new round of EU sanctions very soon.”

On Thursday afternoon, US intelligence agencies reported that a surface-to-air missile was fired at the Malaysian airliner. Who fired the missile was not clear.But the report confirms that the airliner was shot down and did not crash from mechanical failure.

[American Patriot]

Not sure I heard anyone say "hell to pay"... anywhere, especially not Obumbler.

MH17: US swears hell to pay if Russia to blame

5:00 AM Saturday Jul 19, 2014

• Malaysia Airlines
• ...
• Russia
• Ukraine

People search for bodies at the site of the crash. Photo / AFP

Tensions are ramping up between two global super powers after a Malaysia Airlines passenger flight was shot down over Ukraine.
United States intelligence authorities said a surface-to-air missile downed MH17, killing 298 people, but could not say who fired it.


US senator John McCain vowed there would be "hell to pay" if it was fired by rebels or Russian backers.


At the crash site yesterday, body parts and charred wreckage were strewn over 14km, suggesting the aircraft broke up midair.


Russian military or pro-Russia militants are thought to be responsible for shooting MH17 down with a Buk surface-to-air missile.



Separatist rebels who control the area where the plane went down said they had recovered "most" of the aircraft's black boxes and were considering what to do with them.
Ukraine, whose investigators have no access to the area, has called for an international probe to determine who attacked the plane. It has insisted it was not its military. Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko called the attack an "act of terrorism".


Russian President Vladimir Putin blamed the Ukraine for the incident but did not deny that Russian separatists had shot the aircraft down.

The Ukrainian President called the attack an 'act of terrorism'. Photo / AP
Airlines had been advised to cease flights over the volatile region. But numerous passenger flights had continued to ply the route until yesterday, carrying thousands of passengers.
New Zealand and Australia announced they were sending representatives to the scene and have demanded Russian authorities permit proper access to the crash site.
New Zealand Foreign Minister Murray McCully said the consul from the New Zealand Embassy in Moscow was joining an Australian team being deployed to the Ukraine.
The acting secretary of foreign affairs, Bede Corry, met with acting Russian ambassador and deputy head of mission Mikhail Korneev in Wellington yesterday.
Mr McCully said the meeting was "to make very clear the expectation of the New Zealand Government that there will be every co-operation with independent investigators and with those carrying out consular work".
There were also calls from the US for the area to be properly secured as a crime scene.

People pay tribute to the victims near the Dutch embassy in Kiev. Photo / AP
The doomed flight had been due to touch down in Melbourne last night. Among its passengers were top HIV researchers and delegates bound for a conference in Melbourne. A Catholic nun is among the dead along with dozens of children and three infants.
Malaysia Airlines believed it was safe to fly over Ukraine. It was cruising above a perceived threat zone that land-based weapons were not meant to be able to penetrate. All aircraft are now avoiding the air space.
Nine Britons and 154 Dutch have been confirmed dead, along with 28 Australians, 43 Malaysians and 12 Indonesians. Twenty-three Americans were among the dead and at least two New Zealanders were confirmed aboard MH17.
Meanwhile, Ukrainians released a recording between a fighter they claimed was a Russian intelligence officer and a separatist who apparently admitted shooting down a "civilian" aircraft.
"All roads lead to the Russians to some degree," a US official told the Wall Street Journal.

[American Patriot]

Emergency session at UN, right now.

Ukraine government can proof Russians shot down plane. (phone calls)

They also have the intercepted phone call when they realized it was a passenger plane.....

Sickening.

[Avvakum]

Emergency session at UN, right now.

Ukraine government can proof Russians shot down plane. (phone calls)

They also have the intercepted phone call when they realized it was a passenger plane.....

Sickening.

Remember when the USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian Civilian airliner in about 1988-89 I think?

Mistakes happen in a war zone, historically speaking. But some politicians like Obama are making hay out of this while the 'Islamic State' marches on the road to conquest....

We need to ally with Russia and China geopolitically, against this new and rising power, just as we allied with the Soviet Union against Nazi Germany, or I swear our grandkids will be dead or Salafists in their lifetimes. I don't want these guys gaining ground because of all this;



Case in point concerning the utter stupidity of our foreign policy;

Syrian army, Islamic State clash near army airport: monitor

5 hours ago

.View photo

People walk along a damaged street in Deir al-Zor, eastern Syria April 3, 2014. Picture taken April 3, …



BEIRUT (Reuters) - Syrian soldiers clashed with Islamic State militants outside a government-controlled army airport on Friday, a British-based monitoring group said, part of a major escalation of fighting between the al Qaeda offshoot and the military.



The hardline Sunni militants have gained ground in Syria over the past five weeks, bolstered by equipment seized in a lightning offensive last month in neighbouring Iraq.
On Thursday, the group seized the Sha'ar oilfield, east of the central city of Homs, in what the Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said was one of its bloodiest clashes with President Bashar al-Assad's forces.
On Friday, the death toll from the raid rose to 115, the Observatory said. The fate of 250 others was unknown, it said.
A video posted online on Thursday, purportedly of the battle site, showed armed men pacing through a barren desert space speaking in Arabic and German as they reviewed what appeared to be more than 50 bodies, many with gunshot wounds to the head, chest and legs. Some of the bodies appeared to be young men.
"Here lie two pigs," said one of the men, speaking German. At least two multiple-rocket launchers and other military vehicles were visible.
The Observatory, an anti-Assad group which tracks the violence through a network of contacts in Syria, said the government had sent reinforcements backed by helicopters to the nearby Hajjar oil field.
In Raqqa province, which borders Turkey, a woman - sentenced to death for adultery by the Islamic State - was stoned to death, the Observatory said. The report could not immediately be corroborated.
MILITARY AIRPORT
On Friday, fighting also broke out between Islamic State militants and government forces at the army airport in Deir al-Zor, one of the last major strategic locations in Deir al-Zor province not under the control of the Islamic State.
The Syrian army responded to the militants' offensive by bombing areas around the airport, which supplies its forces in the east of the country, the Observatory said. There were no details of casualties.
The fighting was just a few hundred metres (yards) from the airport, the Observatory's director Rami Abdurrahman said, noting that it would be tough for the Islamic State to overcome government forces there.
The Islamic State expelled rival rebels from Deir al-Zor city on Monday, tightening its hold on the eastern province bordering Iraq. [ID:nL6N0PP2YH]
Capturing most of Deir al-Zor province has helped the Islamic State link up territorial gains across Syria and Iraq, where it seized the northern city of Mosul in June. Last month it also declared an Islamic caliphate in territory it controls in both countries.
The group, previously known as the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant, follows al Qaeda's hardline ideology but draws strength from foreign fighters, many with experience in Iraq.
(Reporting by Sylvia Westall and Alexander Dziadosz; Editing by Louise Ireland)

[American Patriot]

Apparently someone DID say "hell to pay" but I think we can safely discount John McCain as having any effect whatsoever on anything, including Putin and Obama, foreign affairs, or even, for that matter domestic affairs, since he's usually on the wrong side of all of it.

Lawmakers say there will be 'hell to pay' if Russia is behind Malaysia Airlines crash

Published July 17, 2014FoxNews.com











July 17, 2014: An Emergencies Ministry member works at the site of a Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 plane crash in the settlement of Grabovo in the Donetsk region. The Malaysian airliner was shot down over eastern Ukraine by pro-Russian militants on Thursday, killing all 295 people aboard, a Ukrainian interior ministry official said.Reuters


WASHINGTON – The White House confirmed Thursday that President Obama and Russian President Vladimir Putin briefly discussed a Malaysian passenger plane crash that killed 295 people on board during a telephone call the two leaders had earlier in the day.


The plane crashed in Ukraine near the border with Russia. It was traveling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia. Pieces of the Boeing 777 along with bodies were found burning on the ground in Ukraine.


White House spokesman Josh Earnest confirmed the call took place but suggested that Putin did not pass on a lot of details to Obama. What Putin passed on – or did not pass on - to the president may be significant as more information comes out on possible Russian involvement.


“I can confirm that President Putin near the end of this morning's phone call with President Obama noted the early reports of a downed passenger jet near the Russia-Ukraine border,” Earnest said.


At a political event in Delaware early Thursday afternoon, Obama spoke briefly about the downed airliner, saying it “looks like it may be a terrible tragedy” and the administration is working to determine whether American citizens were on board. He also noted the national security team is in close contact with the Ukrainian government.


Sen. Mark Kirk, R-Ill., told Fox News the weaponry used to down the plane was consistent with Russian technology although he could not tell for sure “which jerk” in the region shot it down.


Kirk added if the reports are confirmed, the international community should suspend flights over Ukrainian airspace.


Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., took a similar tone. He said there would be “hell to pay” if the plane was shot down by the Russian military – but added, “to leap to conclusions could be very embarrassing and really inappropriate until we have more information.”


Rep. Adam Schiff, D-Calif., a senior member of the Intelligence Committee, said if the crash was caused by pro-Russian separatists, it “represents a tragic and dramatic escalation in this conflict.”


He added, “It’s been clear from the beginning that notwithstanding Putin’s duplicitous statements to the contrary, Russia has continued tostoke theconflictand allow violent separatists in eastern Ukraine access to an array of Russian armaments.”


Schiff also urged European countries to “quickly follow" America's lead by implementing broader sanctions.


State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said U.S. officials had “been in touch” with Ukrainian officials but couldn’t confirm any other details, including whether any Americans were on board the plane traveling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia.


For its part, the Kremlin website published a statement that says “the Russian leader informed the U.S. president of the report from air traffic controllers that the Malaysian plane had crashed on Ukrainian territory, which had arrived immediately before the phone call.”


Ukrainian PresidentPetroPoroshenkoconfirmed the crash and fueled speculation that the plane was shot down by separatists, but State Department spokesman Jen Psaki in a message on Twitter said the U.S. government cannot confirm any cause.


"We do not exclude that this plane was shot down," Poroshenko said, "and we stress that the Armed Forces of Ukraine did not take action against any airborne targets."
The Associated Press contributed to this report.

[Avvakum]

President Putin’s Plane Might Have Been Target for Missile in Ukraine

“I can say that Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon"


[IMG]http://hw.********.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/putins-plane.jpg[/IMG] Image Credits: Wikimedia Commons



by RT | July 17, 2014

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---

Malaysian Airlines MH17 plane was travelling almost the same route as Russia’s President Vladimir Putin’s jet shortly before the crash that killed 295, Interfax news agency reports citing sources.

“I can say that Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft – 15:44 Moscow time,” a source told the news agency on condition of anonymity.
“The contours of the aircrafts are similar, linear dimensions are also very similar, as for the coloring, at a quite remote distance they are almost identical”, the source added.

At the same time, there have been reports contradicting Intefax’s report that was the first and the only media source to publish the news, saying that Presidential plane was not flying over Ukraine at the same time.
As a source told Gazeta.ru online news portal, Putin’s plane does take off from Vnukovo-3 [the terminal that accepts business jets], but the president does not fly over the conflict-gripped neighboring country.
“Putin has only one jet – Board One, he does not fly other planes. This plane always takes off from Vnukovo-3, but the presidential plane have not been flying over Ukraine for a while,” the source at Vnukovo-3 terminal said.
President Putin was on his way from Brazil, where he attended the BRICS summit, to Moscow.
Flight MH17 crashed in Ukraine on a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpar, and was carrying 295 people.
The passenger Boeing-777 was expected to enter Russian airspace at 5:20pm local time, but never did, a Russian aviation industry source was cited by Reuters.
“The plane crashed 60km away from the border, the plane had an emergency beacon,” ITAR-TASS cited its source.

[Avvakum]

President Putin’s Plane Might Have Been Target for Missile in Ukraine

“I can say that Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon"




[IMG]http://hw.********.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/putins-plane.jpg[/IMG] Image Credits: Wikimedia Commons



by RT | July 17, 2014

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---

Malaysian Airlines MH17 plane was travelling almost the same route as Russia’s President Vladimir Putin’s jet shortly before the crash that killed 295, Interfax news agency reports citing sources.

“I can say that Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft – 15:44 Moscow time,” a source told the news agency on condition of anonymity.
“The contours of the aircrafts are similar, linear dimensions are also very similar, as for the coloring, at a quite remote distance they are almost identical”, the source added.

At the same time, there have been reports contradicting Intefax’s report that was the first and the only media source to publish the news, saying that Presidential plane was not flying over Ukraine at the same time.
As a source told Gazeta.ru online news portal, Putin’s plane does take off from Vnukovo-3 [the terminal that accepts business jets], but the president does not fly over the conflict-gripped neighboring country.
“Putin has only one jet – Board One, he does not fly other planes. This plane always takes off from Vnukovo-3, but the presidential plane have not been flying over Ukraine for a while,” the source at Vnukovo-3 terminal said.
President Putin was on his way from Brazil, where he attended the BRICS summit, to Moscow.
Flight MH17 crashed in Ukraine on a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpar, and was carrying 295 people.
The passenger Boeing-777 was expected to enter Russian airspace at 5:20pm local time, but never did, a Russian aviation industry source was cited by Reuters.
“The plane crashed 60km away from the border, the plane had an emergency beacon,” ITAR-TASS cited its source.

There are Chechens on the ground in Ukraine, and with ISIS in the Middle East. Let's think outside the box; yet another doomed Malaysian Airlines flight.... Very strange.

Somebody wants a world war, and the likely suspects for wanting that war are certain Neo-Nazi and Islamic groups. Think about it...

[American Patriot]

Conspiracy theory.

No one was trying to shoot down Putin's plane.

The Russians shot that plan down.

Plain and simple.

[American Patriot]

Apparently, there are rockets being launched in the Ukraine (Russians against the Ukrainian civilians). The rockets contain anti-personnel explosives and are being launched at some cities. I've got very little information on it at the moment, but it's happening now.