The End of Christian America

[American Patriot]

Liberalism is, in short, the long road to Communism.

And for what it is worth, every religious group has their quirks and problems as well. They TRY to tell everyone else what to do. No one likes that. I sure as hell don't.

But, then I like LESS what Liberals are doing.

Fakes... that is Liberals who think they are Catholic (ok, PROFESS to be Catholic) are fakes and combining Liberalism and Religion is one of the MOST dangerous things around.

Just look at any Liberal when they are spitting mad about something. They have a religion all to themselves, and combing that with religion will make them worse because then they think "God is on their side".

The exact opposite are Muslims. Strict, hateful people who think God in on their side.

[Aplomb]

originally posted by michael2:

Glenn Beck suggests leaving any church that spouts these kinds of slogans- I suggest that we should've fought back and not left the parishes to the heretics to begin with....They may have the buildings, heck they have most of the Sheeple inside....In their counterfit commie 'catholicism' they've had decades to infiltrate....

But they don't have the Church, even if we're really only a handfull left.

And the gates of hell shall not prevail against her. I know I'm not leaving nor am I going down w/o a fight.

[American Patriot]

Moslems? They believe they possess the key and the harmony of the natural order of the universe and it's Creator-and we are the reprobate revolutionaries who are against God and man....The lunatics who unfortunately run the asylum, from their point of view. examples include their belief that all men are born into Islam as Moslems, only most have the misfortune to be perverted by other 'false' religions as they grow up, never to realize that Islam is the natural faith of mankind....

All religions believe this about themselves. Including the Catholics, Protestants and Hindi.

Sorry, religion by it's very nature is bossy and if you don't follow that particular religions precepts you're doom to Hell - or whatever other form of eternal punishment the religion dictates be meted out to you.

[American Patriot]

Oh, on a higher thought here.... I've heard the call to "leave the Party" because "The Party Left Me".

Not that I intend to heed the call.

Leaving your religion, or your political party are all the same... doing so is giving up.

My opinion, whether you want it or not folks is "Don't LEAVE the Republican Party, TAKE IT BACK!"

Same thing for religion. If your religion has done something to challenge your beliefs, TAKE BACK YOUR RELIGION.

If the Muslims were doing that, we wouldn't have these fanatics running around stealing airplanes and killing people.

[Aplomb]

All hell is about to break loose. Why should America miss all the fun?

[American Patriot]

I am going to go out on a limb here and say, "No, all Hell is not about to break out."

In the religious context.

Is there evil? Yes.

Is there good? Yes.

Is God going to come down and smite the world? I have my doubts. Obviously I don't know any better than anyone else on this - but I'm here to tell you that I know as much as anyone and I don't see it happening.

Mankind has free will. We will screw ourselves. God doesn't HAVE to do it to us.

Sorry, in my old age, I just don't see any divinity stepping up to the plate and punishing people when they do such a good job to themselves.

[vector7]

Fayetteville (NC) closes homeless shelter because it is Church affiliated

By Andrew Barksdale
Staff writer

A building near downtown Fayetteville that has operated as a homeless shelter for more than 20 years was abruptly closed by city inspectors last week.

The residents of New Life Mission Church on Maloney Avenue were told March 16 they could no longer sleep there because the building is classified as an assembly of worship, not a residence.

City officials said there are code problems that need to be addressed.

The church has five wooden pews in its main room, along with a desk, some couches and a wood-burning stove. The side rooms have bunk beds to accommodate up to 13 people. The building, with cinder-block walls inside painted in colors such as peach and lime green, has a kitchen and two small bathrooms.

Rick Flora, who is 54, had been living at the shelter after being released from prison in February.

"It beats sleeping out in the woods or in the street," he said.

Pastor Grace Kim bought the building in 2001 from another pastor, the late Lou Prosser, who had operated a homeless shelter called Door of Faith Church at the same location for five years.

The combined shelter and church are next to Grove View Terrace apartments off Grove Street.

The building has had other owners and managers. It once was the site of the American Goodwill Shelter. In 1988, the building reopened as a men's shelter with 12 beds called the Stevens Center. Cumberland County budgeted about $100,000 in support when the Stevens Center opened. The money included operating costs and salaries for a social worker and a data-processing employee.

Until last week, Kim lived there, too. Now, she, Flora and a few remaining homeless men are sleeping at night in cots and lawn chairs in the backyard of the property. She said she won't let any more people come to the shelter until her dilemma with the city is solved.

"I feel very sad, but I have to respect their rules," Kim said.

Kim said a former shelter resident who was kicked out must have complained to the city, prompting the inspection this month.

The shuttered shelter is a blow to a county where as many as 1,000 individuals, including women and children, are without a home, according to an annual census taken by homeless advocates.

Another homeless shelter, City Rescue Mission, which houses five women on Adam Street and provides food and other support to the needy, may close next month without more donations. The nonprofit agency needs about $10,000 to $15,000 a month to operate, officials said.

Fayetteville's Community Development Office helped the homeless when it took over, renovated and reopened last year the 21-bed Hope Center shelter for men that had been closed.

Code violation

This month, a city code-enforcement officer discovered that New Life Mission does not have working smoke detectors. That problem was solved when a city inspector gave Kim a box full of smoke detectors donated by the Fire Department.

City Manager Dale Iman noted the lack of smoke detectors when he told the City Council on Thursday in an e-mail about the shelter's closure. He sent the e-mail after a reporter with The Fayetteville Observer began investigating the closure.

"The building does not have proper sanitation or other amenities that are required of shelters," Iman's e-mail said. "Subsequently, the fire marshal ordered the operator to discontinue the use until proper zoning and fire permits are obtained."

Councilman Keith Bates replied in an e-mail to the council that the city had done the right thing.

"This is better than having to pull 11 bodies out of a burnt-down building," Bates' e-mail said.

Councilwoman Kady-Ann Davy, whose District 2 includes New Life Mission, visited Kim and the shelter Friday. She said Kim wants to make an application that seeks to reopen her shelter.

"It's a shock to the community," Davy said. "We know we need to have shelters out there ... However, safety is the No. 1 concern for the city and the citizens of the community."

Fire Marshal Ron Lewis said his files show the building is a place of worship, not a dwelling.

"There are some code issues and change-of-use issues," he said. "We have asked them to stop sleeping there until they are addressed."
Lewis said the city allows churches to house people in emergency situations, such as a fire or hurricane.

Rob Anderson, the city's chief development officer who oversees the planning and inspections departments, said an immediate solution for Kim is to apply for a mixed-occupancy certificate that allows for both an assembly of people and living space at the same location.

"She has a good heart and is trying to do the right thing," Anderson said.

The property's residential zoning allows for both uses.

A certificate may not be enough. Kim's building would need to have all the necessary amenities under city codes to operate as a shelter or residence. Those amenities include electricity, heat, bathrooms and doors or windows in every bedroom that can be used for escape in the event of a fire.

Even if she met the residential standards, Anderson said, the current zoning allows for a maximum of five people to live in a shelter. Other homeless shelters in town with larger capacities are in nonresidential districts, Anderson said.

Kim said she plans to apply for the mixed-use occupancy but didn't know if she would ever be able to house more than five people at a time again.


Staff writer Andrew Barksdale can be reached at barksdalea@fayobserver.com or 910-486-3565.

[vector7]

California: City to Home Bible Study: Shut Down by Good Friday

City:
Rancho Cucamonga, CA

Date:
03/16/2010

A city in Southern California is demanding that a small home Bible study group stop meeting because it does not have an expensive permit. The permit is not required for similar-sized gatherings in homes, such as book clubs, birthday parties or gatherings centered around sporting events.

City officials have also indicated that they might not even grant a permit if it is requested. The city’s stance has similarities to, but is perhaps even harsher than, a pending situation in Gilbert, Arizona, and a flare-up last year over a home Bible study in San Diego County.

In Rancho Cucamonga, the Bible study group, which meets on Friday nights, averages about fifteen attendees. The group is affiliated with Shiloh Tabernacle, which rents out a community center for its Sunday morning service and, like countless other churches across the country, offers smaller Bible studies that meet in members’ homes during the week.

The City of Rancho Cucamonga has sent a letter to the homeowner insisting that the home Bible study is not allowed because it is a “church,” and churches require a Conditional Use Permit (CUP) in residential areas. The City has also indicated that no CUP would be granted and the gatherings must cease by Good Friday, April 2. Pacific Justice Institute Senior Counsel Michael Peffer, who heads PJI’s Southern California office, represents the homeowner where the Bible study meets and will vigorously contest the City’s actions. PJI has guided dozens of churches through the CUP process but has only recently seen it being applied to home Bible studies.

CUP’s require public hearings and regularly require the applicants to obtain traffic studies, architectural design reviews and even seismic retrofits. In California, the process often costs churches hundreds of thousands of dollars—which probably explains why it is almost never applied to informal gatherings in homes.

“Imposing a CUP requirement on a home Bible study is manifestly absurd and unjust,” said Brad Dacus, president of Pacific Justice Institute. “I don’t know of a single court in America that would approve their actions. We will give the City a chance to rescind its letter without litigation, but we are fully prepared to take this as far as is necessary to defend this Bible study group—and countless others like it.”

[vector7]

Galleria Mall: Talk About God, and Get Arrested

By Douglas V. Gibbs



Political Correctness, I have told folks, will be the death of this nation.

Discrimination against free speech, however, is something more than Political Correctness - it is a direct assault on liberty!

Apparently we have gotten to the point that business owners feel that they can dictate to the populace what the acceptable topics around their place of business can be. However, this topic has a fine line, because in the same breath, we must also remember that privately owned businesses should have the freedom to decide what kind of environment they wish to have for their stores.

At the Galleria Mall in Roseville, California, a youth pastor was arrested for talking about God to two willing listeners. Security interrupted the conversation, and then placed him under citizen's arrest, claiming that the charge was "trespassing." Agreeing to leave, in the hopes of avoiding any trouble despite what he thought to be a ridiculous nature of the confrontation, the youth pastor prepared to walk away, but the guards grabbed him, shoved him against a storefront window, and handcuffed him tightly enough to draw blood. He was later taken to the police station where he was booked on charges of battery and trespassing.

The Pacific Justice Institute took the mall to court where a judge upheld the mall's regulations that basically says the mall owners can arrest patrons for engaging in casual conservations if the subject matter is considered to be political or religious in nature by security. An appeal was filed, and the case now has moved to the appellate courts. Pacific Justice Institute is pursuing the case on the grounds that the man's free speech was violated, and the appeal is now with the 3rd Appellate District in Sacramento.

Attorney Matthew McReynolds says of the case, "While a 'don't talk to strangers' rule may be good for kids, enforcing it against adults is absurd, and we think it violates California's free speech guarantees."

While challenging the discriminatory nature of the mall's restrictions in regards to free speech, the Pacific Justice Institute's President, Brad Dacus, says this case is about more than just a conversation about God. "Singling out religious speech for punishment violates our most basic principles of free expression. If anyone can be arrested for wearing a Christian T-shirt or mentioning God in a shopping mall, we have lost not only our freedom, but our sanity as a society."

Pacific Justice Institute's affiliate attorney Timothy Smith adds, "While reasonable regulations certainly are allowed, such as volume limits, targeting speech for banishment because of its subject is not. What they cannot do and did in this case [is target] political and religious speech. They originally chose to arrest the youth pastor for striking up a casual conversation. Since then, they've dug in their heels and are standing firm in their belief they can do whatever they want."

The mall's regulations, besides disallowing commercial speech and speech about religion or politics, also include an exception for those subjects if a speaker knew the other person previously. In other words, under the exemption, the plaintiff would have been allowed to have the same conversation in the same exact place if only he had previously met the people with whom he was speaking.

Such limitations on political or religious speech are exactly why the founding fathers encouraged free speech. The idea that anyone can regulate someone's speech without first examining and approving of it is insane. If, however, a private business owner does want to limit speech inside his or her place of business, the law may very well provide for that. If so, the question then arises regarding where the line should be drawn. Will it be so restrictive that a crucifix on a necklace won't be allowed?

The security went too far with the arrest, and violent treatment of the youth pastor, I believe. If the religious speech was disruptive enough to warrant security to enforce the mall's rules, wouldn't it have been more prudent to simply ask the folks to take the discussion outside, or something like that?

Perhaps they believed their treatment was warranted because, according to the Pacific Justice Institute, the youth pastor originally was confronted during a casual conversation with two other shoppers about faith when a store listened to the conversation and alerted mall security guards.

The owner of the mall, Westfield, owns 55 centers across the United States and is the world's largest listed retail property group by equity.

The mall also bans any clothing with religious or political messages.

One also wonders if the same actions would have been taken if three Muslims were talking about Allah in the mall, or if a couple folks were discussing what they believed to be the importance of a liberal agenda like the gay rights movement, or the abortion lobby.

-- Political Pistachio Conservative News and Commentary

Mall to Christians: God talk banned! - World Net Daily

[vector7]

To be fair, Glenn came out yesterday and defended himself against his critics on the whole Christian Communism label.

He lays out the Marxist plan to use Religion to further their agenda and claims the Obama Administration could be going after him in the second clip.

Glenn Beck-03-23-10-A

Glenn Beck-03-23-10-B

Glenn Beck-03-23-10-C

Glenn Beck-03-23-10-D

[American Patriot]

Well, let me reply first by saying that I think in a way you are right about religions being 'bossy'...After all a good working definition of religion is a 'system of belief claiming answers to issues of ultimate concern for all mankind. Communism is a religion. But to expect anyone of a faith, under this definition of religion, who has the least spark of altruism not to spread their message to (and FOR) the rest of mankind is asking a bit much. but look at the 'problem' of religion another way-not original; suppose you were locked up in a dungeon with dozens of other people and every other day the guards came and took out one prisoner, who never returned. eventually you too would be taken....wouln't you want to know your ultimate fate? For we will all die, you and me and everyone else, and I for one want to know the nature of the eternity before and after me and the infinity within and without me...

'Religion' is the discussion of the prisoners to the question; 'what is our ultimate fate'?

Do you think that perhaps one of the 'bossy' prisoners might have an answer to the question of captivity?

let me clearly state something here.

I am a Free Man. An American. I fought and defended this country against Communism. It is NOT a "religion", it is an idealism. It has roots in controlling people. I've fought, face-to-face against Communists in Central America and they were trying to kill me. My fate would have been death if I failed in my mission. Period.

Secondly, let me state further that while there are people in the US who believe the First Amendment is a rule against "Religion in Government" it's the other way around. Clearly the Fist Amendment allows me, the media and religion to exist WITHOUT GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE (not the other way around). However, there are those in religion who also believe they can force you to change your thinking if they disagree with what you say.

While I am CERTAINLY for individual rights, and freedom of speech, my rights are MINE. Your rights are YOURS. I expect Religious people preaching in my face to get out of my face when I tell them to get out of my face. I don't appreciate pressure from the Government, from Sales people, or religious people trying to convince me to "change my ways".

They don't know what "my ways" are - to any extent, they can not and do not know what is in my thinking, or my personal religious beliefs and truly it IS NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS.

It is not the government's business, nor my neighbor's business. It's not the business of religion to FORCE me to (through the use of coercive methods, brainwashing, or even preaching to me constantly) change my religion or even my way of thinking.

It is a SAD, SAD world in which we are living today.

Twenty years ago this country was enlightened and people were honestly LEARNING to leave others alone - except of course those who were intent on (and still are) of CONTROLLING OTHERS.

Government, religion, cults and even such lowly groups as "housing covenant groups" want ONLY to control every, singular aspect of each of our lives.

You might say "Capitalism is a religion" and you'd be completely wrong. The only true freedom we have in this country even now is to buy those things we want and need to survive... if those things are available.

Today, our economy is going to hell in a hand basket because it is being "Talked Down" by the government, by Leftists, and by those who really haven't a clue about how economics works.

America is in trouble, and ALL of it is due to bad attitudes and lies.

We have an in-power Administration that is LOADED with Communist supporters (all documented elsewhere). Our government has fallen into believing things like Global Warming (and using it against the public), they are telling Americans "We don't CARE what you think! You can't tell US what to do, we're the US Government".

Those people, Congress mostly and the current Administration have turned a deaf ear and blind eye to what more than 64% of Americans are saying, "HELL NO WE DON'T WANT THIS HEALTH CARE BILL, it's stupid, you don't know what's in it and you're forcing something down our throats WE DO NOT WANT!"

The American PEOPLE are awake. NOW all that remains is to AWAKEN CONGRESS to their transgressions against America.

Religion is least of my worries.

And to answer your question.... I am NOT a prisoner on this planet, I'm a living, breathing human being with intelligence. I'm not an animal. I live my life how I wish and people who don't like it can pound sand. And it is a foregone conclusion that those in your limited scenario who aren't coming back are either being released or executed. (They could be being moved, but you've given us little logical information to determine that).

You also gave us no understanding of why we were prisoner to begin with. If it was over politics... then those not returning are being killed. No, I don't want to "know my fate". I will fight to prevent it, to the end and ultimate death.

If there's a God and a Heaven - and I believe there is, then HE is my judge, no one else, not you, not some religion, not some government or other individual. I won't be judged by men. It's not their place and I don't care what their "status" or "position" in life happens to be.

A judge, a Congressman or woman, Lawyer, President of the United States or King - all put their pants on as I do... and they all Eat, Breathe and Excrete - and by God, they all clean their asses the same way I do.

NONE of them are qualified to be MY JUDGE. Period.

[vector7]

Praying in park puts man in jail for 9 days

Letter warning of warrant arrives after defendant taken into custody

Posted: March 24, 2010
8:34 pm Eastern

By Bob Unruh
© 2010 WorldNetDaily

A Christian who prayed in a public park with six other people is serving a nine-day jail sentence for disorderly conduct even though his case is under appeal and charges against the others were dismissed or overturned.


Wisner Park in Elmira, N.Y.

Julian Raven of Elmira, N.Y., said he was "surprised by police at his office," handcuffed and taken into custody this week, according to the Alliance Defense Fund, which is defending Raven.

"According to his wife, police escorted him out of a court hearing … in handcuffs in front of his crying children to begin serving his nine-day jail sentence," the organization said in a report.

"We are surprised at how eager the city was to arrest Mr. Raven again in light of his appeal. Now he will serve time in jail; however, we will continue to aggressively pursue his appeal in court," said Joel Oster, ADF senior legal counsel.

WND previously reported on the decision to appeal Raven's conviction.
Raven was arrested while praying in an Elmira public park during a 2007 "gay pride" event. His attorneys are waiting for a response from the New York Court of Appeals.

Originally seven people were arrested June 23, 2007, in Elmira's Wisner Park at a homosexual festival promoted by city officials as open to all.

Four were convicted, but three of the convictions already have been overturned. The Christians "made their way to an area in front of the stage and began to pray silently while lying prostrate in the grass. A police sergeant had earlier informed Julian Raven that he could not enter the public park, walk through the park, or talk to anyone in the park about his religion. After the group began to pray silently on their faces, all were arrested and charged with disorderly conduct," ADF reported.

Court records show Sgt. Sharon Moyer told Raven he could not disrupt the event.

So, ADF reported, he and the others "entered the event to pray silently for event participants and to share the Gospel with them."

"There was plenty of room in the park. No one was being turned away.

They walked in silence. Neither the defendant nor anyone from the group bumped into anyone as they entered and they did not force others out of the way," ADF said.

They walked to a grassy area near the front, kneeled or laid down, and prayed.

"They chose this posture in order to be as non-threatening as possible," ADF said.

Moyer then arrested the seven and reported it was because of concern that the homosexual festival participants might react with hostility to the Christians.

Three defendants were removed from the case almost immediately, leaving four to be convicted by Elmira city Judge Thomas Ramich of "disorderly conduct."

But the convictions for three – Gloria Raven, Maurice Kienenberger and Walter Quick – later were overturned in the Chemung County Court.

ADF is arguing, under the First and 14th amendments to the U.S. Constitution, "peaceful speakers may not be arrested simply because others in the forum may react to their message in a hostile manner."

"The lower courts in this case ruled that the arrests were proper because the defendant must have known that other event participants would respond with hostility. This, however, is precisely what the … cases prohibit," ADF asserts.

When the Christians were arrested, officials with Elmira justified their actions to WND.

Assistant Police Chief Mike Robertson told WND at the time that the members were accused of a "combination" of allegations, including the "intent" to cause a public inconvenience, a "disturbance" of a meeting of persons and obstructing vehicular or pedestrian traffic.

He also said at the time that the accusations would include taking part in "any act that serves no legitimate purpose."

The prosecutor, Robert Siglin, said the city was concerned for public safety, and that's why the Christians were arrested while exercising their First Amendment rights.

ADF said it is ironic that Elmira recently settled a lawsuit in a separate federal civil action involving Raven and two others. In that 2008 case, Elmira police threatened the men with arrest as they tried to share their faith during another "gay pride" event.

The men were wearing shirts with the message "Liberated by the blood of Jesus," handing out literature and holding up signs on a public sidewalk at the event.

Court documents show the city paid each defendant in that case $5,000 plus the attorneys' fees and costs for the action.

Oster told WND that the city appeared to go out of its way to create controversy in the case. Raven has been represented by legal counsel throughout, yet the city mailed to his home address – not his legal counsel – a notification of an arrest warrant.

The city then arrested Raven before the notification reached him, Oster confirmed.

"They wouldn't have to do that," he said. "It was intentionally to create embarrassment."

[American Patriot]

Well I hope I can clear up a few points, including my symbolic analogy. first, i'm not interested in religious or any other kind of coercion, even though you do know that in life, in reality, we human beings all engage in some kind of coercion daily, right? And some beliefs like communism and naziism simply are too noxious to exist and be propagated-that is why Alfred Rosenburg was executed at Nuremburg, really....

Symbols are one thing. Real life is wholly another. I don't believe in using analogies to "coerce" people either. I believe absolutely, positively in factual information and nothing more or less.

When people on the left start trying to use analogies they are trying to use obfuscation. The right is no better when it comes to such things, and religions and communism and naziism are the worst.

As to my 'prison' analogy, all the questions you have (and by admiting that we will all die at some point you agree to the metaphor to a degree) form an individual prisoner's reply to the mystery of life; in essense you are saying that while you too cannot escape death you will accept no outside controls that are not self imposed, right? And really, most controls from outside influences are self-imposed, like the decision to go to church, except obvious controls like trying to violate the law of gravity or pay taxes, or to live forever.

I don't buy it. People KNOW why they are in prison. There's a vast difference in being in jail and being a living human being on this planet. We all were born due to the acts of our parents. Those who believe God caused it are deluding themselves. People have sex because they LIKE TO. Maybe God made that so, but he didn't shove two people together and tell them "make babies so I can convince them to follow Me..."

Of course, that's MY belief. The Bible also states we have Free Will. If I have Free Will then I don't believe that if God gave that to me, that MAN has a right to take it from me. Period.

I don't and didn't agree to anything in your statement. Certainly as living creatures with a finite life span, assuming nothing bad happens, no diseases and we're not killed out right by some accident of nature (or by others' hands) we will eventually die. However, I ALSO know without doubt that we have the capability of extending that life span.

THAT is your religion (your answer to issues of ultimate concern) and if you can live with that i'm ok,

I have "no religion".

because it will be of little relevance to you if we agree or not really.

Relevant to the discussion it makes quite a bit of difference if we agree or not.

You do seem offended by my lumping in communism with religion,

To some degree, but on the other hand, I also agree with you. Religion, and Communism are similar, it's just that religion is based on FAITH and BELIEF - in short it is based on UNKNOWNS.

Communism is based on a set of rules that are KNOWNS. (So too is Capitalism)

I resent lumping religion and science together. They are NOT the same thing by any means.

Political systems (or economic systems, which is what socialism, communism and capitalism actually are) being lumped with religion is also just as incorrect. You might make comparisons, but the comparisons have no basis in fact.

This is where ALL religious argument falls flat on it's face. (Don't get me wrong, I'm all for people having beliefs in their lives, along with hope... but lumping a faith-based idealism into a scientific discussion is ridiculous since neither of the two subjects are in any way related, at ANY level.)

but to my mind it really is an explanation for it's motive force and it does have answers to the issues of ultimate concern, just not answers you and I can abide or agree with.

Again, comparing religion with economic or political systems is just not going to make points with your argument.

If you argue that those who believe in God would fight Communism, I can accept that. I do in fact think that those who are truly religious (at least in a Christian manner) will fight anything on this planet that takes from them their free will and ability to live as they like.

How weak is their religion therefore if they DO NOT fight such things?

And that seems a good way to end my reply for now, you and I can agree to disagree perhaps, and agree that communism is the offensive enemy to be combatted together.

And indeed we do agree on that....

[American Patriot]

This is something of a reply to your reply-that's awkward english! But anyway, it's actually refreshing to me that you really have no need of an analogy, metaphor, symbol, etc....To face the 'Prison', which is simply the constraints of reality we all face as human beings, such as individual mortality. No amount of preaching or scholastic philosophy truly convinces anyone who wishes to be unconvinced anyway. I also happen to agree with you about the Science/Reason vs. Religion divide, while attaching no perjorative connotation to Religion being in the 'Unreason' catagory. Things that are not falsafiable in the scientific/Karl Popper sense are not necessarily false in reality however, and 'Science' has a tendancy to be itself a 'religion' with an orthodoxy and historically periodic paradigm shifting as well

Undertsand that I never said I didn't "have need of analogy". I do use it to compare like things, if I'm say, discussing something in a scientific venue. Comparing the heat given off of a celestial body with the heat given off of planet-bound bodies. Those are scientific things.

Comparing something Jesus did with what some government is doing are not the same though and you can't make such analogous comparisons!

Also note I applied NO such pejorative to Religion not being "reasoning". I know several clergy quite well, some of the most intelligent, reasoning, thinking people I've ever known. They do indeed have the ability to think in scientific terms within their own belief systems. Impressive.

I just am saying that science is based on known facts.
Religion is not based on known facts, but on faith (usually faith alone!)

You can NOT set up a scientific proof based up on unknowns and you can't prove religious beliefs based on non-facts. You can not, simply, compare the two things. Period.

I do find it interesting that we live in a country that creates a 'zone', if you will, that makes both, and only, yours and my belief systems VIABLE here-and no others.... Don't you?

I have no problem whatsoever in being right all the time

In other words, we live in a Capitalist society based on Judaeo–Christian belief systems.

How is it wrong that only that set of parameters are used to justify right and wrong? It's not.

In the Muslim world, they live by very different standards. We perceive them as wrong when they beat or cover their women, beat young men for not growing beards and we see them as wrong for outright killing of "infidels".

Are they wrong?

Certainly by OUR standards they are. By theirs, we are in the wrong and are the infidels to be killed.

Do we sit and let them kill us because they believe their system is right and ours is wrong? Hell no.

Do we kill them because we believe they are wrong? No, but that's OUR way.

If they attack us, we fight back. We don't go fight them simply because of religious differences.

THAT is the difference between us, them, right and wrong.

[Aplomb]

Interesting thing, we have a government that is based on "change" that you can, um, "believe in". More things are a matter of faith than many people want to believe, especially those who dis-believe in God. Believe that !

[American Patriot]

Interesting thing, we have a government that is based on "change" that you can, um, "believe in". More things are a matter of faith than many people want to believe, especially those who dis-believe in God. Believe that !

I didn't vote for change, I didn't vote for Obama and I'm damned sure going to vote for America and removal of these Socialist assholes from my government.

If that doesn't work, and my marks on my ballot won't work, then I WILL join the Millions that will carry them out of off bodily if necessary.

[American Patriot]

You still imply a universal system of morality, based on self-defence, if nothing else....I do not at all in a humanistic sense, but only in the Sovereign Will of God. Your milage may vary

I imply nothing.

You do not have to be exposed to religion to understand "right and wrong".

Human being are much more moral about most things than anyone wants to admit.

The Left wants us all to believe we are nothing more than animals.

The Right wants us to believe we're nothing of the sort.

The truth is somewhere in the middle.

And you all know for a FACT after the attacks on the WTC and Pentagon Americans came together to HELP one another. There were fringers out there of course, but in general human beings are HELPFUL to one another.

They understand without being taught that you help your fellow "animal" and they will help you.

[Aplomb]

Just a side note on this:

There is no natural human act that does not have an element of hubris involved.....Vanity and philanthropy go together like ham and eggs.

Some of us actually do give of ourselves and do not allow the voice to grab some glory an inch. Pride, arrogance, self- there need not be any element of hubris involved in doing good for others. But the interesting point about that is seeing what kind of people are actually able to be like that. Love, real love does it. Maybe each of us does it at least once in our lives, sacrificing for another with no thought of self. Rare, though, I tell ya, and that is a shame for it is exactly what Christians are called to do as a lifestyle. Saints. Read about them. And strive to be one, ya'll.

[American Patriot]

Michael.... there is no assignment of Christianity to my own acts of giving, and even more so, there is no desire, want or need on my part to be "recognized".

I give to charities and assist people without them knowing who I am, when I can do so. I don't ask for recognition.

[vector7]

Davenport residents upset over Good Friday change

Brian Boesen Reporter
March 28, 2010



DAVENPORT, Iowa - With the Lenten season winding down, Davenport is creating bad feelings about Good Friday.

Bill Edmond and other city council members are upset over the city's change to the religious holiday.

"The civil rights commission has decided we can no longer call it Good Friday. We have to call it 'Celebrating Spring', and I was dumbfounded. I thought, 'What?"

Members of the council didn't vote on the decision. They didn't even know about it, until an article published in the Quad City Times last week.

"I said you're telling us this now? The city council was never approached. We're getting blindsided with this," said Edmonds.

Instead, the city sent out a release announcing the new, "Celebration of Spring."

A block from City Hall, the move was a hot topic at Sunday's dedication ceremony of a new parish hall at St. Anthony's Catholic Church.

"If you deny the idea of Good Friday then you have to deny Easter." said Msgr. Robert Schmidt.

Civil rights commissioners and others on their side support the separation of church and state. Phone calls were not returned and members didn't speak on camera.

The topic is sure to remain heated the rest of Holy Week.

To Father John Onderko, the logic is simple.

"If we don't have Good Friday, what's the purpose of Easter? Because in everybody's life we all have our Good Fridays and if we can get through our Good Fridays, we know we can experience Easter."