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Thread: Gays and The Military: A Bad Fit

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    Default Re: Gays and The Military: A Bad Fit

    General: Marines don't want to share rooms with gays

    Tue Aug 24, 4:28 pm ET

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The overwhelming majority of Marines oppose sharing sleeping quarters with openly serving gays and lesbians, an obstacle if Congress lifts the ban on gays in the U.S. military, the top Marine said on Tuesday.

    Marine Corps Commandant General James Conway, a vocal opponent of ending the military's 17-year-old ban on openly serving homosexuals, told Pentagon reporters of the standing policy: "We'd just as soon not see it change."

    "But again, we will follow the law, whatever the law prescribes," Conway said.

    The existing Clinton-era policy allows gays and lesbians to serve in the military if they keep quiet about their sexual orientation, but expels them if it becomes known.

    The repeal of the policy, known as "Don't ask, Don't tell," is championed by President Barack Obama and gay rights advocates, who see it as a milestone in a campaign for equal rights in the United States. Critics say it will add strain to a force already stretched by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Although the Marines have criticized ending the ban, many within the military favor allowing homosexuals to serve openly, including the top U.S. military officer, Admiral Mike Mullen, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

    "We sometimes ask Marines what is their preference and I can tell you that an overwhelming majority would like not to be roomed with a person that is openly homosexual," Conway, who is retiring in the fall, told reporters.

    He said there was not enough funding to create single rooms for all Marines but suggested one possibility would be to recruit volunteers to share sleeping quarters with homosexuals, since a minority of them do not oppose ending the ban.

    "Perhaps, you know, a voluntary basis would be the best place to start, without violating anybody's sense of moral concern," he said.

    The Pentagon has surveyed troops and is currently polling spouses for a Defense Department study due by December preparing for a potential repeal of the "Don't ask, Don't tell" law.

    "My own surveys indicate that it's not age-dependent, it's not rank dependent, it's not where you're from," he said, adding that repeal was "pretty uniformly not endorsed as the ideal way ahead."

    That said, Conway was explicit that the Marines would lead the way in repeal if it were enacted.

    "We're going to have to lead in this too.

    There will be a 100 issues out there that we have to solve if the law changes in terms of how we do business," he said. "We cannot be seen as dragging our feet, or some way delaying implementation."

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    Default Re: Gays and The Military: A Bad Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Peterle Matteo View Post
    As a Italian soldier i agree with Marines.

    Ok...ex soldier.

    But i can be called in active service in every moment if needed.
    Can we all agree that gay men are more of a problem than gay women?

    If i'm in a ditch calling for a medic, I'll take a giant bull dyke over an effeminate sissy any day.
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat."
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    Default Re: Gays and The Military: A Bad Fit

    Man wish I had saved this article.

    Guy's name was Fred Ward, he was a retired Col. (IIRC the rank), and he wrote Op Ed pieces for the Stars and Stripes.

    I was in Korea at the time, and he fired off a barn burner against gay men in the mil.

    The last sentance of the piece was something like:

    The next time you're in the gym shower, look around. It's just not designed to work that way.



    Don't think I've ever laughed so loud at an article.

    And that was the last article he wrote for the Stars and Stripes.

    I've tried to find that article online since then, but no luck.

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    Default Re: Gays and The Military: A Bad Fit

    Personally.... I think all you guys who are afeared of Gay men are seriously having issues with your own manhood.

    But, you know, that's just me saying it.

    If I'm hit, in the foxhole, I don't give a rip who's trying to save my dyin' ass. I know several "gay" men and women. Some of them are lunatics. Most, however are normal as you and I are when it comes to "everyday life".

    I don't care what they do in the bedroom. They DON'T do it at work, and they DON'T do it around me.... it being anything other than act normal.

    Honestly, I have a much bigger issue with women being in the military than I do "gay men".

    A man is still a man, still able to fight better, meaner and longer than a woman. Lift weights better and when it comes down to it, I'm not INTERESTED in other men, therefore, if they are "interested in me" I will tell them so and be done with the issue.

    If they persist, I'll punch them in the face. It's not a gentlemanly thing to do that to a woman, but you can punch another guy
    Libertatem Prius!


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    Default Re: Gays and The Military: A Bad Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Donaldson View Post
    Personally.... I think all you guys who are afeared of Gay men are seriously having issues with your own manhood.
    What are you wearing?


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    Default Re: Gays and The Military: A Bad Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Backstop View Post
    What are you wearing?

    lol, yesterday or now big fella?
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    Default Re: Gays and The Military: A Bad Fit

    Military recruiters told they can accept openly gay applicants

    From Adam Levine, CNN
    October 20, 2010 9:55 a.m. EDT




    Pentagon accepts openly gay recruits


    STORY HIGHLIGHTS

    • NEW: Judge reaffirms ruling allowing gays and lesbians into military
    • Recruiting stations are not asking about sexual orientation
    • The Pentagon says given the ruling, recruiters can accept gay and lesbian candidates

    Are you serving in the military, or are you a vet? Share your thoughts on 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell.'

    Washington (CNN) -- The Pentagon has advised recruiting commands that they can accept openly gay and lesbian recruit candidates, given the recent federal court decision that bars the military from expelling openly gay service members, according to a Pentagon spokeswoman.

    The guidance from the Personnel and Readiness office was sent to recruiting commands on Friday, according to spokeswoman Cynthia Smith.

    The recruiters were told that if a candidate admits he or she is openly gay, and qualify under normal recruiting guidelines, their application can be processed. Recruiters are not allowed to ask candidates if they are gay as part of the application process.

    The notice also reminded recruiters that they have to "manage expectations" of applicants by informing them that a reversal of the court decision might occur, whereby the "don't ask, don't tell" policy could be reinstated, Smith said.

    Later Tuesday, U.S. District Court Judge Virginia Phillips in California denied the government's request for an emergency stay of her order barring the military from enforcing its ban on gay men and lesbians serving openly. The government is now expected to go to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco.


    Video: Pentagon gives OK to gay recruits




    Video: Gay combat vet: I want to serve again


    Groups representing gays and lesbians have warned against coming out to the military because the policy is still being appealed in courts.
    One group, the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, sent a statement out Tuesday reiterating the concern.

    "During this interim period of uncertainty, service members must not come out and recruits should use caution if choosing to sign up," said SLDN Executive Director Aubrey Sarvis in the statement. "The bottom line: if you come out now, it can be used against you in the future by the Pentagon."

    Judge Phillips' ruling on "don't ask, don't tell" stemmed from a lawsuit by Log Cabin Republicans, a gay rights group, challenging the policy.

    Former Army Lt. Daniel Choi, an Iraq war combat veteran who challenged "don't ask, don't tell" and was discharged, moved to rejoin the military Tuesday afternoon. "I'm here because I want to serve my country," he said.

    "In the recruiting station. Apparently I'm too old for the Marines!" he said in a tweet. "Just filled out the Army application."

    Choi said he told recruiters he was gay and that there was no reaction or delay in the enlistment process. He indicated he would complete his paperwork Wednesday and that he did not care what rank he would assume.

    Will Rodriguez-Kennedy, president of Log Cabin Republicans' San Diego, California, office, tried Tuesday afternoon to be reinstated by the Marines.

    "Once a Marine, always a Marine," said Rodriguez-Kennedy, a corporal who was honorably discharged in February 2008.

    He served three years of a four-year term. "It's a feeling of not having completed a full tour," he said.

    Recruiters told him Tuesday there were no current slots and they would call him in January, Rodriguez-Kennedy told CNN. One option is to join another branch of the service, but Rodriguez-Kennedy said he might now speak with Marine officers or get legal help.

    Reinstatement would allow him to keep the corporal rank and resume benefits.

    Rodriguez-Kennedy, 23, served as a provisional military police officer in Iraq in 2007. He said he was open to new responsibilities. "I love the Marine Corps," he told CNN.

    CNN called several recruiting stations in New York and Chicago. They referred inquiries to the Pentagon.

    CNN's Larry Shaughnessy, Vivienne Foley and Phil Gast contributed to this report

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    Default Re: Gays and The Military: A Bad Fit

    Having spent 32 years US Army, I don't feel quite right with gays/lesbians. First hand experience, and lesbians in the platoon, just made for odd, very obvious, incidents. Maturity, professionalism, dictate appropriate behavior, but that weirdness still exists.

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    Default Re: Gays and The Military: A Bad Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by quartertiller View Post
    Having spent 32 years US Army...
    Holy cow - that's a long time.

    Thank you for your service.

    If you don't mind me asking, what did you do in the Army?

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    Got me beat.

    Only 26 years. And I was "only in the Air Force"... whatever the fuck that means.
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    Default Re: Gays and The Military: A Bad Fit

    <>>>"only in the Air Force"<<

    I can explain it with this one parable.

    When asked what is the best knife to take "in country" to the sandbox...here's the answer:

    Ka-bar if you're a marine
    M9 if you are army
    butter knife if you are air force
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat."
    -- Theodore Roosevelt


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    Default Re: Gays and The Military: A Bad Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Malsua View Post
    <>>>"only in the Air Force"<<

    I can explain it with this one parable.

    When asked what is the best knife to take "in country" to the sandbox...here's the answer:

    Ka-bar if you're a marine
    M9 if you are army
    butter knife if you are air force
    Lol got to be able to butter the biscuits!
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    Default Re: Gays and The Military: A Bad Fit

    Maybe that's why the Obama Administration is seeking to eliminate The Marine Corps

    Marine general suggests repeal of 'don't ask' could result in casualties

    Audio: Marine Corps commandant on DADT

    In an interview with reporters, Gen. James F. Amos, talks about his opposition to the repeal of "Don't ask, don't tell."

    By Craig Whitlock
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Wednesday, December 15, 2010; 12:01 AM


    The Marine Corps' top general suggested Tuesday that allowing gays to serve openly in the military could result in more casualties because their presence on the battlefield would pose "a distraction."

    This Story


    View All Items in This Story
    View Only Top Items in This Story

    "When your life hangs on the line," said Gen. James F. Amos, the commandant of the Marine Corps, "you don't want anything distracting. . . . Mistakes and inattention or distractions cost Marines' lives."

    In an interview with newspaper and wire service reporters at the Pentagon, Amos was vague when pressed to clarify how the presence of gays would distract Marines during a firefight. But he cited a recent Defense Department survey in which a large percentage of Marine combat veterans predicted that repealing the "don't ask, don't tell" law would harm "unit cohesion" and their tight-knit training for war.

    "So the Marines came back and they said, 'Look, anything that's going to break or potentially break that focus and cause any kind of distraction may have an effect on cohesion,' " he said. "I don't want to permit that opportunity to happen. And I'll tell you why. If you go up to Bethesda [Naval] Hospital . . . Marines are up there with no legs, none. We've got Marines at Walter Reed [Army Medical Center] with no limbs."

    Amos had said previously that allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly could cause "distractions" and "risks" for combat units. But his remarks Tuesday were the first time that he or any other senior military leader has suggested that repealing the 17-year-old "don't ask, don't tell" law could directly endanger troops and cost lives.

    The Marine Corps - which prides itself on its macho image - and its leaders have been more resistant to overturning the law than other branches of the armed forces.

    The Defense Department survey, released last month, found that 58 percent of those in Marine combat arms units predicted that repeal would negatively affect their ability to "work together to get the job done." In comparison, 48 percent of those in Army combat units felt the same way.

    Overall, 70 percent of those in the military said they believe repeal would have little or no effect on their units.

    Amos, the first Marine commandant with a background as a jet pilot, has been outspoken on the subject since he was confirmed by the Senate in September. In testimony to the Senate Armed Services Committee on Dec. 3, he was more critical of efforts to overturn the law than the other military branch chiefs, saying that changing the rules during wartime would be disruptive and ill-advised.

    The commandant made clear Tuesday, however, that he would not resist if Congress formally integrates gays into the military, saying the Marines would "get in step and do it smartly." He noted that the Corps was "not a democracy" and that the Pentagon's survey did not amount to a referendum in which leaders were beholden to obey the whims of the force.

    At the same time, he said he was obligated to listen to Marines under his command.

    "Right now is a very intense period of time for a pretty healthy slice of the United States Marine Corps. This is not training," Amos said.

    "The forces that wear this uniform, that are in the middle of what I call the real deal, came back and told their commandant of the Marine Corps they have concerns," Amos said.

    "That's all I need. I don't need a staff study. I don't need to hire three PhDs to tell me what to interpret it," he said. "If they have concerns, I do, too. It's as simple as that."

    The Marines' overall reluctance to accepting gays in the ranks stands in contrast to public opinion. About eight in 10 Americans favor allowing gays to serve openly in the military, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll.

    The House of Representatives plans to vote Wednesday on a bill to repeal the gay ban. It is expected to pass easily, but its fate in the Senate is uncertain.

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    Default Re: Gays and The Military: A Bad Fit

    Senate takes step to repeal 'don't ask, don't tell'

    Six Republicans join Democrats in a 63-33 vote to advance the bill that would allow gays to openly serve in the military. A formal vote on the Senate floor still lies ahead.

    By Lisa Mascaro and Michael Muskal December 18, 2010, 11:16 a.m.

    Reporting from Washington and Los Angeles —



    The Senate was poised on Saturday to allow gays to openly serve in the military after supporters overcame a procedural hurdle to bring the repeal of "don't ask, don't tell" to the Senate floor.

    In a 63-33 vote, the Senate passed the cloture motion. A formal repeal vote still lies ahead, but the outcome seemed assured after six Republicans joined with Democrats to advance the bill, which required 60 votes.

    The six Republican senators who voted with the majority were: Scott Brown, of Massachusetts; Susan M. Collins and Olympia J. Snowe, both of Maine; Mark Kirk of Illinois; Lisa Murkowski of Alaska and George Voinovich of Ohio. Sen. Joe Manchin, of West Virginia, the only Democrat to oppose repeal, did not vote.

    President Obama has made the repeal of the 1993 law one of his priorities in the lame-duck congressional session. The House passed the bill this week 250 to 174.

    "The Senate has taken an historic step toward ending a policy that undermines our national security while violating the very ideals that our brave men and women in uniform risk their lives to defend," President Obama said in a prepared statement." By ending 'don't ask, don't tell," no longer will our nation be denied the service of thousands of patriotic Americans forced to leave the military, despite years of exemplary performance, because they happen to be gay. And no longer will many thousands more be asked to live a lie in order to serve the country they love.

    "It is time to close this chapter in our history," he stated."It is time to recognize that sacrifice, valor and integrity are no more defined by sexual orientation than they are by race or gender, religion or creed. It is time to allow gay and lesbian Americans to serve their country openly. I urge the Senate to send this bill to my desk so that I can sign it into law."

    When passed by the Senate and signed by the president, the repeal would allow gays and lesbians to serve in the military without fear of prosecution for their sexual orientation. More than 13,500 people have been dismissed from the military under the law.

    "Don't ask, don't tell is wrong," said Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) in his opening remarks Saturday morning. "I don't care who you love. If you love this country enough to risk your life for it, you shouldn't have to hide who you are. You ought to be able to serve."

    Many Republicans, led by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), opposed the repeal, arguing it should not be considered during the current time of war. That position is backed by chiefs of the Army and Marine Corps who have warned Congress that repeal could pose problems if the law is overturned.

    Speaking on the floor before the procedural vote, McCain, the GOP's presidential candidate in 2008, acknowledged that Republicans didn't have the vote to block repeal. He derisively noted that liberals, who lacked military experience, would "high five" across America.

    McCain and other Republicans argued that the repeal should not be pushed on troops during a time of war. "They will do what is asked of them," McCain said of the military, "but don't think there won't be a great cost."

    Republicans also cited questions among some military leaders, particularly, Marine Corps Commandant Gen. James Amos, who argued that repeal could cost lives.

    "I don't want to lose any Marines to the distraction," he told reporters this week.

    But other military officials including, Adm. Mike Mullen and Marine Gen. James Cartwright, the chairman and vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said the fear of disruption is overblown.

    Proponents of the repeal made two basic arguments, one involving civil rights and the other military preparedness.

    "This is a historic vote for equality, civil rights and a stronger America," said Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.). "This is a continuation of our nation's march toward full equality for all."

    Democrats also cited a recently released Pentagon study that found that two-thirds of the military didn't think changing the law would have much of an effect.

    Once the measure becomes law, Obama and military chiefs will have to certify that the change wouldn't hurt the ability of troops to fight and there would also be a 60-day waiting period. The actual elimination of "don't ask, don't tell," which dates back to the Clinton administration, could take as long as a year.

    Still there was happiness among supporters, some of whom were in the Senate gallery to watch the vote.

    "This has been a long fought battle, but this failed and discriminatory law will now be history," said Joe Solmonese, president of the Human Rights Campaign.

    The Senate began its rare weekend session Saturday morning poised to battle over two of the most contentious social issues in this lame-duck session, "don't ask, don't tell" and immigration. Earlier, the Senate voted down an effort to bring the Dream Act to the floor.




    Congress Overturns Military Ban of Gays Serving Openly, Sends Bill to Obama's Desk

    Published December 18, 2010
    FoxNews.com



    AP2010
    Senate Majority Leader Sen. Harry Reid, D-Nev., from right,
    speaks as he stands with Sen. Joesph Lieberman, I-Conn.,
    Sen. Mark Udall, D-Colo., and Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt.,
    at a news conference about the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" bill. (AP)


    WASHINGTON -- In a landmark vote, the Senate on Saturday ended the Clinton-era ban on gays serving openly in the military, marking a major triumph for President Obama, liberals and the gay community.
    The final vote to end the Pentagon's 1993 "don't ask, don't tell" policy was 65-31, drawing support from eight Republicans.

    The bill now goes to the White House for Obama's signature. He is expected to sign the bill into law next week, a senior White House aide told Fox News.

    "It is time to close this chapter in our history," Obama said in a statement after a test vote cleared the way for final action. "It is time to recognize that sacrifice, valor and integrity are no more defined by sexual orientation than they are by race or gender, religion or creed."
    Once the law is repealed, gays will be openly accepted by the military for the first time in U.S. history, and can acknowledge their sexual orientation without fear of being kicked out. More than 13,500 service members have been dismissed under the 1993 law.

    A supporter of a bill to overturn the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy holds up a portrait of Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., who opposes the amendment to repeal the military's 17-year-old ban on openly gay troops, Friday, Dec. 10, 2010, during a rally on Capitol Hill in Washington. (AP)

    After two failed attempts this year to repeal the policy, the third time proved to be the charm for Congress. The bill passed the House this week in a 250-175 vote, and cleared a final Senate hurdle earlier Saturday in a 63-33 vote, clearing the way for final passage.

    The eight Republicans who joined Democrats in passing the repeal were: Sens. Scott Brown of Massachusetts, Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, Mark Kirk of Illinois, George Voinovich of Ohio, Richard Burr of North Carolina, John Ensign of Nevada and Susan Collins and Olympia Snowe of Maine.

    Voinovich said in a statement that he had vowed to keep an open mind until the release earlier this month of the Pentagon's report on the impact of overturning the ban.

    "Having reviewed the report, I accept its findings and Secertary Gates' recommendation and reassurance that the repeal will be implemented when the battle effectiveness of our forces is assured and proper preparations have been completed," he said.

    Supporters of repealing the ban applauded the repeal.

    "Today's vote is the critical strike against 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell,' and toward creating a path that could end in lesbian, gay and bisexual people being able to serve openly, honestly, and to great benefit of our country," said Rea Carey, executive director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force. "We celebrate this important victory and thank all the senators who supported fairness today. We are on the brink of making history."

    House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said the vote "closes the door on a fundamental unfairness in our nation."

    "When President Obama signs this bill into law, we will begin opening the doors of our armed forces to all patriotic Americans, regardless of their sexual orientation," she said.

    Defense Secretary Robert Gates said he welcomed repeal of the policy and added that the Pentagon "will immediately proceed with the planning necessary to carry out this change carefully and methodically, but purposefully."

    Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said he was pleased to see Congress repeal the policy.

    "More critically, it is the right thing to do," he said. "No longer will able men and women who want to serve and sacrifice for their country have to sacrifice their integrity to do so. We will be a better military as a result."

    Secretary Hillary Clinton, who was first lady when "don't ask, don't tell" was first enacted, issued a statement cheering its repeal.

    "This is historic step forward for all Americans, a step toward a more perfect union and a more perfect reflection of our core values," she said. "As the president and I have repeatedly said, we are committed to universal standards abroad and here at home. Our progress on equality here strengthens our advocacy for human dignity everywhere."

    The passage delivers a resounding victory to Obama, who made repeal of the 17-year-old law a campaign promise in 2008.

    It also is a win for congressional Democrats who have struggled in the final hours of the lame-duck session to overcome Republican objections, and for gay rights groups who said Saturday's vote was their best shot at changing the law because a new GOP-dominated Congress will take control in January.

    Under the bill, the president and his top military advisers -- the defense secretary and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff -- are required to certify to Congress that lifting the ban won't hurt troops' ability to fight. After that, 60 days must pass before any changes go into effect.

    A small but vocal group of Republicans led by Sen. John McCain of Arizona said the law shouldn't be changed during wartime.

    "We send these young people into combat," said McCain. "We think they're mature enough to fight and die. I think they're mature enough to make a judgment on who they want to serve with and the impact on their battle effectiveness."

    But the Democratic push for repeal was strengthened by the release of a major Pentagon study that concluded gays could serve openly without affecting combat effectiveness. The assessment found that two-thirds of troops predicted little impact if the law is repealed.

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    Default Re: Gays and The Military: A Bad Fit

    Straight Troops Must Shower With Gays, Says DOD Working Group--‘Gay Men Have Learned to Avoid Making Heterosexuals Feel Uncomfortable or Threatened in Situations Such as This’

    Saturday, December 18, 2010

    By Terence P. Jeffrey


    U.S. Marines in Helmand province, southern Afghanistan on Sunday, Oct. 4, 2009. (AP Photo)


    (CNSNews.com) - A special Defense Department working group appointed by Defense Secretary Robert Gates has recommended that the military should “expressly prohibit” heterosexuals from using separate showers, bathrooms and bunking facilities from homosexuals when the repeal of the law banning homosexuals from the military goes into effect.

    The working group also has recommended that commanding officers be left with the authority to exempt individuals from using the same showers, bathrooms and living facilities as homosexuals, but only on a “case-by-case” basis.

    The House voted earlier this week and the Senate voted this afternoon to repeal the military ban on homosexuals, which has often been referred to as “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.”

    The working group’s Nov. 30 report—“Report of the Comprehensive Review of the Issues Associated with a Repeal of ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’”--concluded that permitting heterosexuals to use separate showers, bathrooms and bunking facilities from homosexuals of the same gender would “stigmatize” homosexuals and be “reminiscent of ‘separate but equal’ facilities for blacks prior to the 1960s.” The working group was co-chaired by Jeh Charles Johnson, the Defense Department’s general counsel, and U.S. Army Gen. Carter F. Ham.

    “In the course of our review we heard from a very large number of Service members about their discomfort with sharing bathroom facilities or living quarters with those they know to be gay or lesbian,” said the report. “Some went so far to suggest that a repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell may even require separate bathroom and shower facilities for gay men and lesbians. We disagree, and recommend against separate facilities. Though many regard the very discussion of this topic as offensive, given the number of Service members who raised it, we are obliged to address it.”

    The working group said that having homosexuals use different bathrooms and living facilities from heterosexuals would not only create a “logistical nightmare” but would be discriminatory.

    “The creation of a third and possibly fourth category of bathroom facilities and living quarters, whether at bases or forward deployed areas, would be a logistical nightmare, expensive, and impossible to administer,” said the report.

    “And, even if it could be achieved and administered, separate facilities would, in our view, stigmatize gay and lesbian Service members in a manner reminiscent of ‘separate but equal' facilities for blacks prior to the 1960s,” said the report.

    “Accordingly,” the report concluded, “we recommend that the Department of Defense expressly prohibit berthing or billeting assignments or the designation of bathroom facilities based on sexual orientation. At the same time, commanders would retain the authority they currently have to alter berthing or billeting assignments or accommodate privacy concerns on an individualized, case-by-case basis, in the interests of morale, good order and discipline, and consistent with performance of mission. It should also be recognized that commanders already have the tools—from counseling, to non-judicial punishment, to UCMJ prosecution—to deal with misbehavior in either living quarters or showers, whether the person who engages in the misconduct is gay or straight.”

    The report also said a survey of more than 115,000 active duty service members indicated only 29.4 percent would “take no action” if they were assigned to share an “open bay shower” with a homosexual.

    The other 70 percent of service members answered this way when asked what they would do if assigned to an “open bay shower” with someone they believed to be a homosexual: 25.8 percent said they would use the shower at a different time than the homosexual, 17.7 percent said they would talk to a superior to see if they had a different option, 11.1 percent said they would have a discussion with the other person to see how they would handle the situation, 7.9 percent said they did not know how they would handle the situation, 7.0 percent said they would do “something else,” and 1.3 percent said they would talk to a chaplain, mentor or leader about how to deal with it.

    The report acknowledged that in focus groups conducted for the working group “a frequent concern expressed by some Service members was personal privacy in settings where they may be partially or fully unclothed in the presence of another Service member they know to be gay or lesbian—for instance, shared showering facilities or locker rooms.”

    However, the report concluded that the concerns that heterosexual service members in this regard were based on “stereotypes” about homosexuals and stated that homosexuals have “learned to avoid making heterosexuals feel uncomfortable or threatened in situation [sic] such as this.”

    The report argued that heterosexuals and homosexuals shower together “every day” in college and high school gyms and “in professional sports locker rooms” and that it should be no different in the military.

    “Here again, we are convinced that separate bathroom facilities would do more harm than good to unit cohesion and would be impracticable to administer and enforce,” said the report. “Concerns about showers and bathrooms are based on a stereotype—that gay men and lesbians will behave in an inappropriate or predatory manner in these situations. As one gay former Service member told us, to fit in, co-exist, and conform to social norms, gay men have learned to avoid making heterosexuals feel uncomfortable or threatened in situation [sic] such as this. The reality is that people of different sexual orientation use shower and bathroom facilities together every day in hundreds of thousands of college dorms, college and high school gyms, professional sports locker rooms, police and fire stations, and athletic clubs.”

    The report quoted the adverse sentiments of a number of service members who participated in focus groups where they indicated they did not want to have to shower, use the bathroom or roommate with homosexuals.

    “I live in the barracks and I don’t think that it would go over well in that kind of environment,” one service member told a DOD focus group. “I’m concerned about how people would treat that individual.”

    “In the privacy side of the thing, they’ll have to make some changes to the current infrastructure, [for example] privacy stalls in the bathrooms,” said another service member.

    “I do not have to shower or sleep in a room with men so I do not want to shower or sleep in the same room as a woman who is homosexual,” said a female service member. “I would feel uncomfortable changing and sleeping as I would if it was a man in the room. I should not have to accept this.”

    “Tell him if he hits on me I will kick his - - -!” said another service member who participated in a DOD focus group.


    Gay rights in focus before UN vote


    By ANITA SNOW, Associated Press
    Sunday, December 19, 2010
    (12-19) 07:48 PST UNITED NATIONS, (AP) --

    A culture war has broken out at the United Nations over whether gays should be singled out for the same protections as other minorities whose lives are threatened.

    The battle will come to a head on Tuesday when the General Assembly votes to renew its routine condemnation of the unjustified killing of various categories of vulnerable people.

    It specifies killings for racial, national, ethnic, religious or linguistic reasons and includes refugees, indigenous people and other groups. But the resolution, because of a change promoted by Arab and African nations and approved at committee level, this time around drops "sexual orientation" and replaces it with "discriminatory reasons on any basis."

    The U.S. government says it is "incensed" at the change, as are gay rights campaigners.

    "Even if those countries do not support gay rights, you would think they would support our right not to be killed," said Jessica Stern of the New York-based International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission.
    Stern said gay people all over the world are frequent targets of violence because of their sexual orientation.

    Authorities in Jamaica are investigating a possible hate crime in the slaying earlier this month of a man who belonged to the sole gay rights group in the conservative, largely Christian nation. Uganda, among 76 countries that criminalize homosexuality, is debating whether to join the five other countries in the world that consider it a capital crime.

    The General Assembly is set for a final vote Tuesday on its biennial resolution condemning extrajudicial, summary and arbitrary killings — without the reference to sexual orientation for the first time since 1999.

    U.S. Ambassador Susan Rice has said she was "incensed" the reference was removed and the United States will move Tuesday to restore it.

    The battle over those two words underscores the historic split over gay rights among U.N. members and their diverse religious and cultural sensibilities. Activists say gay and lesbian issues got only minimal attention at the U.N. a decade ago.

    "There has been slow, but steady progress on lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender rights at the U.N.," Stern said.

    Stern cited as progress Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon's "landmark" speech during a gay rights forum at U.N. headquarters on Human Rights Day, Dec. 10, calling for an end to laws around the world that make it a crime to be homosexual.

    But as gay rights gain more acceptance in the U.N. system, some member states are pushing back, said Mark Bromley, of the Washington-based Council for Global Equality, which aims to advance gay rights in American foreign policy. "I think some states are uncomfortable and they are organizing to limit engagement on the issue."

    "We are seeing a backlash," agreed Stern. "This is an illustration of the tensions around culture at the United Nations, and how power plays out and alliances are made."

    Benin, on behalf of African countries, introduced the amendment deleting the specific reference to sexual orientation at a Nov. 16 General Assembly committee meeting. Benin's mission to the U.N. did not immediately respond to a request sent via e-mail for more information about why the amendment was introduced.

    Benin, a largely Christian country of 8 million with a sizable Muslim population, argued that "sexual orientation had no legal foundation in any international human rights instruments." Morocco, an Arab country in north Africa that is almost exclusively Muslim, asserted that such selectivity "accommodated particular interests and groups over others" and urged all U.N. member states "to devote special attention to the protection of the family as the natural and fundamental unit of society."

    Western nations opposed the move to delete the mention of sexual orientation.

    Britain called it "an affront to human dignity," and France and Norway said the move was "regrettable." Sweden said the change amounted to "looking the other way" when people are killed for being gay.

    The amendment narrowly passed 79-70, with 17 abstentions. The so-called Third Committee, which deals with human rights issues and includes all 192 U.N. member states, then approved the entire resolution on all unjustified killings for discriminatory reasons 165-0, with 10 abstentions.

    General Assembly resolutions are not legally binding, but rather reflect the views of the majority of the world's nations.

    Mark Kornblau, spokesman for the U.S. mission to the United Nations, said the United States will introduce an amendment next week to restore the previous language including the phrase "sexual orientation" because "this is an issue that is important to us."

    "We've also been doing a great deal of lobbying" to get the restoration of the phrase approved, Kornblau said.

    Gay rights and human rights activists also have been lobbying missions to the U.N. in New York in recent days, urging especially those delegations that abstained on the amendment to help restore the mention of sexual orientation.

    "We only need a few more countries and we can change this vote around," said Boris O. Dittrich, who directs the program on lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender rights for the international advocacy group Human Rights Watch.

    But gaining the world's support for gay rights will take far longer.

    More than two-thirds of U.N. members, many of them Muslim nations, are refusing to sign a separate United Nations statement condemning human rights violations based on sexual orientation and gender identity, especially with regard to the application of the death penalty and extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions.

    Under the Bush administration in 2008, even the United States refused to join all other Western nations in signing that declaration, arguing that the broad framing of the language in the statement might conflict with U.S. laws.

    After President Barack Obama took office, the United States last year joined other member states to support the declaration, saying it found that the language did not conflict with American laws. Sixty-eight of the U.N.'s members have now signed the declaration. That leaves 124 countries that have not.

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    Default Re: Gays and The Military: A Bad Fit

    Fulfillment of the "Communist Goals" has reached all levels of our National Security:

    1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.

    2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.

    3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.

    4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.

    5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.

    6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.

    7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.

    8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.

    9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.

    10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.

    11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)

    44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.

    The planned communist destruction of a strong America that emerged victorious after WW2 has now crept in many facets of our society:

    15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.

    16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.

    17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

    18. Gain control of all student newspapers.

    19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.

    20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policymaking positions.

    21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.

    22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms."

    23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. "Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."

    24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.

    25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.

    26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."


    Now the useful idiots have aimed it at America's last line of defense; toward the core of our fighting men and women in uniform.

    Activist will exploit any charge of discrimination.

    The social engineering consequences are by design to destroy, tear down, indict and court martial ANYONE from grunts to CO's for 'Hate Crimes' and 'Discrimination' against homosexuals. It will destroy the unit cohesion that made our troops the most effective in the world.


    Barney Frank: Straight Soldiers Must Shower With Gays, But Not Women With Men


    Tuesday, December 21, 2010
    By Nicholas Ballasy



    House Financial Services Chairman Barney Frank, D-Mass.


    (CNSNews.com) - Rep. Barney Frank (D.-Mass.) says he agrees with the recommendation of a Department of Defense (DOD) working group that straight and gay military personnel of the same gender should be required to shower together when the repeal of the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” law goes into effect.

    Frank, however, said Armed Forces personnel of opposite sexes should not shower together.



    “What do you think happens in gyms all over America?" Frank said when asked by CNSNews.com about the working group's recommendation that straights be required to shower with gays. "What do you think happens in the House of Representatives? Of course people shower with homosexuals. What a silly issue. What do you think goes wrong with showering with homosexuals? Do you think the spray makes it catching? I mean people shower with homosexuals in college dormitories, in gyms where people play sports; in gyms elsewhere. It is a complete non-issue. ”

    CNSNews.com then asked Frank why he thinks it is a non-issue.

    “To accept the principle that homosexuals can’t shower with other people is a degree of discrimination that goes far beyond this. We don’t get ourselves dry cleaned. We tend to take showers when we go to the gym; when we play sports,” he responded.

    Rep. Frank continued, “The notion that knowing that someone is gay or lesbian as opposed to knowing that they are gay or lesbian people that have to pretend who they are; that that somehow makes a difference is pretty silly,”

    Frank was also asked if he thinks male and female military personnel should be able to shower together.

    “No that would disrupt people,” he said.

    As previously reported by CNSNews.com, a special DOD working group appointed by Defense Secretary Robert Gates in anticipation of the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, said in its November 30 report-- “Report of the Comprehensive Review of the Issues Associated with a Repeal of ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’” --that permitting heterosexuals to use separate showers, bathrooms and bunking facilities from homosexuals of the same gender would “stigmatize” homosexuals and be “reminiscent of ‘separate but equal’ facilities for blacks prior to the 1960s.” The working group recommended that separate showers, bathrooms and rooming facilities for homosexuals and heterosexuals be "expressly prohibited" by the military.

    Rep. Frank also said he agrees with the DOD working group’s recommendations. “I don’t have a problem with the recommendation. If people don’t want to shower with gay people, then they better not play sports, they better not belong to gyms, they better not go to colleges where not everybody has their own bathroom,” said Frank.

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    Default Re: Gays and The Military: A Bad Fit

    I think we need to change the name of this thread now.

    /chuckles.

    Gays and The Military: A Bad Fit

    Instead:

    Gays and the Military: Fit well now

    And - I think men and women should be allowed to shower together now.
    Libertatem Prius!


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    Default Re: Gays and The Military: A Bad Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by michael2 View Post
    Don't men and women shower together now? At least that's what i've heard....
    Well, my wife and I do...

    But I was thinking more like some of the gals I saw in uniform... when I was active duty.

    lol
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    Default Re: Gays and The Military: A Bad Fit

    Will a Leftist Takeover of the Military Precede a Leftist Military Takeover? | Print | E-mail
    Written by Selwyn Duke
    Friday, 31 December 2010 18:00

    When Roman leader Julius Caesar became “dictator for life” in 44 B.C., he had an asset all aspiring despots need: the military’s loyalty. For without boots on the ground, a totalitarian nightmare remains nothing more than an ambitious villain’s dream.

    This occurs to me when I ponder the repeal of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” and the overall transformation of our military.

    Now, I must mention something here: I’ve never been much of a conspiracy theorist. Frankly, I subscribe to the maxim, “Never attribute to malice what is better explained by stupidity.” I don’t for a second believe that most of the boots on the cultural ground — the lust-blinded homosexual activists and ne’er-do-well civil-rights hustlers — have ambitions beyond their horse-blinders agenda. Nor do I think that our rather dull Senators, such as mind-frozen Mainers Susan Collins and Olympia Snow, never gay Golden Staters Babs Boxer (sorry, ma’am, but it just seems fitting) and Diane Crimestein, and the provisionally pious Joe Lieberman, want to relinquish power to a potentate. That’s why we have the term “useful idiots.” But something does occur to me, something you may call a fantasy — or a nightmare. And I don’t say it’s likely or that it isn’t; just view the following as my thinking out loud.

    Let’s say you were a leftist bent on orchestrating a takeover of the United States. I’m talking about someone with the mindset of Obama ally Bill Ayers, who once said that to cement a domestic communist revolution they might have to kill 25 million capitalists.

    Now, every informed person knows that leftists aren’t very popular in the military; our armed forces are a bastion of traditionalism, supporting Republicans and exhibiting Christian piety to a disproportionate degree. Given this, if a leftist had aspirations of becoming the first American dictator, it seems likely that the military (or at least elements thereof) wouldn’t back him. That is, unless he could transform the military.

    How would you eliminate traditionalism from the armed forces?

    Obviously, by instituting its opposite: politically correct social engineering. You could perhaps start by enlisting more women and then making them part of combat units, and you could make military academies co-ed. Also be sure to have women serving aboard naval vessels, which will result in a sky-high pregnancy rate.

    You then could cater to the increasingly feminized atmosphere by issuing “stress cards” to trainees, who could produce them in boot camp if they felt a drill sergeant was being, you know, a real meanie. And you could bring in a psychologist nicknamed “Dr. Happy” to teach “resiliency classes.” Next, it helps if you start promoting members through the ranks based partially on a quota system. And don’t forget the requisite sensitivity training, classes in how to prevent things such as stereotyping and racial profiling.

    Also, it’s important to promote pliant, boot-licking lackeys such as Admiral Mike Mullen to positions of power. Then, once this is accomplished (and I know I’ve missed a few steps, programs and policies), you can dumb down the prohibition against homosexuals to a “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy and later on, finally, allow them to serve openly. Of course, all this will do nothing to solve the military’s manpower problem, but it may solve its manly-power problem. It will start to bleed good men.

    And while conspiracists will say it’s by design, politics wonks will chalk it up to ideology and straight talkers will call it stupidity, that argument is secondary. Whether you contracted a deadly disease by accident or were purposely infected won’t change the fact that if you don’t cure it, you will die. And the point is that everything outlined in the above paragraph has already happened.

    And the process continues.

    And good men are leaving the service. Most of us have heard the stories, too. Just consider this posting under an American Thinker blog piece about the repeal of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell”: “I no longer take pride in being a soldier. I will ETS as soon as my contract is up. To hell with this country now, [sic] I'm done fighting for it.” Or consider a couple of posts left under an August 18, 2009 Fox News piece about “Dr. Happy.” One serviceman wrote:

    I about fell out when I heard about ‘stress cards’ in boot camp…. What idiot came up with those stress cards?

    Do they think the Taliban or Abu Sayyaf will stop shooting at you because you show them a little pink card with Hello Kitty on it that reads, ‘Please stop shooting at me. It lowers my self esteem’?... I don't know if I want to reenlist now or not.

    And after complaining about spending several days a month in mandatory classes designed to combat things such as stereotyping and “racial profiling,” one ex-soldier wrote, “We only went to the firing range once during the last year I was in the Army, but we watched a ton of prevention presentations in air-conditioned auditoriums.”

    The fact is that the kind of warriors you want in the military appreciate a robust, masculine, almost Spartan environment and are deterred by a feminized, namby-pamby, Dr. Happy approach. And good men did in fact leave because of Bill Clinton. Good men left because of social engineering. And more good men are leaving because of Barack Obama.

    Of course, there are still plenty of good men left in the military. It is still a relative bastion of traditionalism. And it is still, most would say, far-fetched to believe that Obama might be laying the groundwork for a future dictatorship. As I said, I’m just thinking out loud.

    But this is undoubtedly true: As in ancient Rome, civilizations do tend to transition from democracy to tyranny. It’s also true that this transition occurs when the people become sufficiently corrupt. And what is the state of modern America? It is such that her people elected a man who, in saner times, would have been investigated by the House Committee on Un-American Activities. And this is not hyperbole. Remember that Barack Obama was raised by unreconstructed leftists, mentored by communist Frank Marshall Davis and gravitated toward Marxist professors in college. We also now know about John Drew, a contemporary of Obama’s at Occidental College who used to be a communist himself. He would discuss the Red faith with Obama and verifies that The One was “in 100 percent, total agreement” with his communist professors and was a flat-out “Marxist-Leninist” who believed in old-style communist revolution.

    Now, there’s something else I can say about that transition to tyranny. To state the obvious, communist revolution is certainly some degree closer when communists actually start appearing in government. Of course, Obama’s college days are almost 30 past, so he might have hoped and changed, right? Perhaps. But, if a man is known by the company he keeps, note that Obama not only allied himself with Bill Ayers (what’s 25 million “corpsemen” between friends?) but also appointed avowed communist Van Jones and Anita Dunn — who cited Mao Tse-tung as one of her two favorite philosophers — to positions in his administration. And this doesn’t even take into consideration the de facto communists in his employ, people such as Valerie Jarrett, and John Holdren of Chinese-style forced-abortion fame.

    Admittedly, it does sound like the stuff of late-night radio talk shows to say that Obama aims to remake the military in his own image so he can be a third-millennium Caesar.

    But his history certainly is enough to make one think out loud. And history is our only guide. Because whatever Barack Obama’s passions may be, the media won’t ask, and he won’t tell.

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    Default Re: Gays and The Military: A Bad Fit

    Military to unveil homosexual indoctrination plan

    Lolita C. Baldor and Pauline Jelinek - Associated Press Writers - 1/26/2011 3:55:00 PM

    Updated: 1/27/2011 9:40 AM (Central)

    WASHINGTON - Officials say Pentagon leaders will roll out a plan Friday that is expected to give the military services about three months to train their forces on the new law allowing "gays" to serve openly.

    The plan, they said, will outline the personnel, recruiting and other regulations that must be changed. It will describe three levels of training for the troops, their commanders and the key administrators, recruiters and other leaders who will have to help implement the changes.

    Under that training schedule, full implementation of the law could begin later this summer. Once the training is complete, the president and his top military advisers must certify that lifting the ban won't hurt troops' ability to fight. Sixty days after certification, the law would take effect.

    Word of the plan comes a day after President Barack Obama told the nation in his State of the Union address that the change was in sight.

    Pentagon press secretary Geoff Morrell said senior defense and military leaders will provide an update Friday on how the Pentagon is proceeding on the implementation of the new law, which ended the Pentagon's 17-year-old "don't ask, don't tell" policy and will allow gays to serve openly for the first time in history.

    Morrell declined to say more, but officials familiar with the plan described it on condition of anonymity because it has not been finalized or made public.

    Details have been scarce as the military has scrambled to pull together the dozens of legal and policy changes that must be made by all the services in order to put the new law into effect.

    The changes affect how troops are recruited, trained and discharged, as well as how same sex partners will be treated in terms of various health and other benefits.

    Some will be easy to implement. For example, recruits will no longer be turned down because they are gay.

    But others involving benefits, housing and the execution of the training program will be more complex.

    According to officials, the training will be broken into three categories. One will be for administrators and other leaders who will have to be able to answer detailed questions about the new policy. The second will be for senior commanders who will have to enforce the policies and also be on the lookout for signs of unease or problems among service members.

    The third group will be the general training for the troops. That is the one that is expected to be the most difficult to complete because service members are scattered around the world, and many are in various phases of deployment to war or heading home.

    In his State of the Union speech Tuesday night, Obama declared that, "Starting this year, no American will be forbidden from serving the country they love because of who they love." He added, "It is time to leave behind the divisive battles of the past. It is time to move forward as one nation."

    Although Obama did not describe any specific time frame, Pentagon leaders have repeatedly said they will move quickly but carefully to implement the law.

    Advocates for gays have called for quick action.

    "For years, experts have said that a swift repeal process, accompanied by strong leadership, is the best way to repeal `don't ask, don't tell.',"

    Aaron Belkin of the Palm Center, a California think tank, said Wednesday. "In promising ... to implement the repeal of the ban this year, President Obama has demonstrated leadership and committed to the path that has been proven to be best not only for gay service members, but for all of those who currently serve."

    The Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, however, wants officials to hurry along certification that the change won't hurt military effectiveness.

    "We think there should be certification from the president, (Defense) Secretary Robert Gates and (Joint Chiefs of Staff) Chairman Michael Mullen in this quarter," the group said in a statement Wednesday. "We need to make `Don't Ask' repeal a reality sooner rather than later."

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    Nikita Khrushchev: "We will bury you"
    "Your grandchildren will live under communism."
    “You Americans are so gullible.
    No, you won’t accept
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    outright, but we’ll keep feeding you small doses of
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    until you’ll finally wake up and find you already have communism.

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    ."
    We’ll so weaken your
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    until you’ll
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    like overripe fruit into our hands."



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