Ron Paul's "What If" Speech: Your Thoughts

[zenbudda]

I've tried to do some searching on this board for Ron Paul discussions. In the research that I've been doing, it seems he's a big advocate of the constitution and getting the USA back to the days of the Republic. I reviewed some of his debates and out of every other politician I've researched so far, Ron Paul "seems" to represent a lot of what I believe. Something tells me you guys/gals have already read/heard this, but in case you haven't, i'll post a refresher (don't click the link unless you are a fan of Metallica's "And Justice For All" album (if you do like that album, I highly recommend the link):

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dcf_1258646092

What if we wake up one day and realize that the terrorist threat is a predictable consequence of our meddling in the affairs of others?

What if propping up repressive regimes in the Middle East endangers both the United States and Israel?


What if occupying countries like Iraq and Afghanistan - and bombing Pakistan - is directly related to the hatred directed toward us and has nothing to do w ith being free and prosperous?

What if someday it dawns on us that losing over 5,000 American military personnel in the Middle East since 9/11 is not a fair trade-off for the loss of nearly 3,000 American citizens, no matter how many Iraqi, Pakistani, and Afghan people are killed or displaced?

What if we finally decide that torture, even if called "enhanced interrogation techniques," is self-destructive and produces no useful information - and that contracting it out to a third world nation is just as evil?

What if it is finally realized that war and military spending is always destructive to the economy?

What if all wartime spending is paid for through the deceitful and evil process of inflating and borrowing?

What if we finally see that wartime conditions always undermine personal liberty?

What if conservatives, who preach small government, wake up and realize that our interventionist foreign policy provides the greatest incentive to expand the government?

What if conservatives understood once again that their only logical position is to reject military intervention and managing an empire throughout the world?

What if the American people woke up and understood that the official reasons for going to war are almost always based on lies and promoted by war propaganda in order to serve special interests?

What if we as a nation came to realize that the quest for empire eventually destroys all great nations?

What if Obama has no intention of leaving Iraq?

What if a military draft is being planned for the wars that will spread if our foreign policy is not changed?

What if the American people learn the truth: that our foreign policy has nothing to do with national security and that it never changes from one administration to the next?

What if war and preparation for war is a racket serving the special interests?

What if President Obama is completely wrong about Afghanistan and it turns out worse than Iraq and Vietnam put together?

What if Christianity actually teaches peace and not preventive wars of aggression?

What if diplomacy is found to be superior to bombs and bribes in protecting America?

What happens if my concerns are completely unfounded - nothing!

What happens if my concerns are justified and ignored - nothing good!

-Statement of Congressman Ron Paul

United States House of Representatives

I'm interested in knowing if any of his "assertations" are unfounded.

[Backstop]

What if Ron Paul shut up and went away?

I"m not a fan of his, and wrote him off a long time ago.

[zenbudda]

backstop,

i appreciate your comments. why do you not like him?

[Backstop]

My comments is orange.

What if we wake up one day and realize that the terrorist threat is a predictable consequence of our meddling in the affairs of others?

My note: terrorists have been attacking us since the early 70s - in at least as much as I was introduced to their tactics. Paul doesn't really detail exactly what he means by ":meddling in the affairs of others." But to me it implies that we should completely leave every other nation alone, pull all our troops home, stop influencing the spread of democracy, etc.

What if propping up repressive regimes in the Middle East endangers both the United States and Israel?

My note: Prove it, Mr. Paul.

What if occupying countries like Iraq and Afghanistan - and bombing Pakistan - is directly related to the hatred directed toward us and has nothing to do w ith being free and prosperous?

My note: It has everything to do with being free and prosperous - for the people in Iraq and Afghanistan.

What if someday it dawns on us that losing over 5,000 American military personnel in the Middle East since 9/11 is not a fair trade-off for the loss of nearly 3,000 American citizens, no matter how many Iraqi, Pakistani, and Afghan people are killed or displaced?

My note: WTF Mr. Paul? Trade-off?!?! That's a pretty brazen statement, claiming American lives are a trade-off. The reality is, we are hitting terrorism in its own back yard. And we're fucking them up bigtime.

What if we finally decide that torture, even if called "enhanced interrogation techniques," is self-destructive and produces no useful information - and that contracting it out to a third world nation is just as evil?

My note: I'd like to know exactly where he learned that interrogation - "torture" - doesn't work.

What if it is finally realized that war and military spending is always destructive to the economy?

My note: Military spending is destructive to the economy? We must maintain a strong military. If we don't, our economy - and nation - will suffer.

What if all wartime spending is paid for through the deceitful and evil process of inflating and borrowing?

My note: Throw the lying bastards out of office and elect new ones. Then again, all politicians lie.

What if we finally see that wartime conditions always undermine personal liberty?

My note: Show me how the WOT is undermining my personal liberty?

What if conservatives, who preach small government, wake up and realize that our interventionist foreign policy provides the greatest incentive to expand the government?

My note: He's correct in that our government must expand to reach other nations. But that expansion does not need to encompass the U.S., but does. So in essence, Mr. Paul is correct.

What if conservatives understood once again that their only logical position is to reject military intervention and managing an empire throughout the world?

My note: Anytime anyone says the "only logical position" is theirs, I tend to igonre the rest of what they're saying. When it comes to International Relations, oftentimes there are many "logical positions."

What if the American people woke up and understood that the official reasons for going to war are almost always based on lies and promoted by war propaganda in order to serve special interests?

My note: So the WOT may be based on lies? Here's where I think Mr. Paul is FOS.

What if we as a nation came to realize that the quest for empire eventually destroys all great nations?

My note: "Quest for Empire?" Just what the fuck is he talking about here?

What if Obama has no intention of leaving Iraq?

My note: I have no idea the intentions of Barry O. here.

What if a military draft is being planned for the wars that will spread if our foreign policy is not changed?

My note: Good. If we can't get enough volunteers to protect this nation, then draft them.

What if the American people learn the truth: that our foreign policy has nothing to do with national security and that it never changes from one administration to the next?

My note: More bullshit.

What if war and preparation for war is a racket serving the special interests?

My note: Bullshit just went over the top of my boots.

What if President Obama is completely wrong about Afghanistan and it turns out worse than Iraq and Vietnam put together?

What if Christianity actually teaches peace and not preventive wars of aggression?

My note: He just can't see the WOT as taking the fight to the enemy. And comparing the WOT to Christian guidelines is dumb.

What if diplomacy is found to be superior to bombs and bribes in protecting America?

My note: Diplomacy. Sit around the fire, hold hands, and sing Kumbaya. We've tried that numerous times and it didn't work. Sheesh.


What happens if my concerns are completely unfounded - nothing!

What happens if my concerns are justified and ignored - nothing good!

-Statement of Congressman Ron Paul

United States House of Representatives

[American Patriot]

Ron Paul might indeed be a "Constitutionalist" but, unfortunately for him he is ALSO a fringe lunatic.

He makes REPEATED appearances on the Alex Jones show.

He believes and has so stated that the United States government was INVOLVED with causing and creating the 9-11 attacks. Alex Jones, if you don't know is a Jew Hating bigot. He also is one of the reasons that there are so many hateful people out there that the LEFT points to, lumping ALL of us together with them.

There's a lot more, but let him help you out himself.

JANUARY 17, 2007:
On the Alex Jones show, (with Jack Blood guest-hosting) Ron Paul says “..a real investigation isn’t going to happen. But I think we have to keep pushing for it.”
“CALLER: I want a complete, impartial, and totally independent investigation of the events of September 11, 2001 . I’m tired of this bogus garbage about terrorism. Ask Michael Meacher about how he feels about this bogus war on terrorism. Can you comment on that please?
HON. DR. RON PAUL: Well, that would be nice to have. Unfortunately, we don’t have that in place. It will be a little bit better now with the Democrats now in charge of oversight. But you know, for top level policy there’s not a whole lot of difference between the two policies so a real investigation isn’t going to happen. But I think we have to keep pushing for it. And like you and others, we see the investigations that have been done so far as more or less cover-up and no real explanation of what went on.
[Full MP3 link. Discussed here and here.]

SEPTEMBER 11, 2007:
On KFI Radio Los Angeles, Ron Paul is asked about Alex Jones and if he will denounce 9/11 truth.
The host John Zeigler, who is a neocon gatekeeper and ardent supporter if Bush’s “war on terror” , was eventually fired from KFI for what he claims were problems with KFI host John Kobylt. Kobylt recently got angry when a caller brought up 9/11 truth on air (before being cut off) in November 2009.

There's a lot more and we have covered him on this site in various threads before.



Basically, he's a kook.

[Backstop]

I didn't know about Ron Paul and Alex Jones.

That just solidifies my position.

[zenbudda]

guys, thanks again for your input. there is A LOT of material on this site . and it is definitely time consuming to sort through. i have a lot of beliefs and ideas that are unexplored and untested. i enjoy learning new information and crediting/discrediting information as facts come across.

i know a little bit about alex jones and most of what i've learned is that most of what he represents, i do not agree with. i do acknowledge that i read conspiracy theories and will engage in conversation about them, but it's mostly an endeavor to stay entertained. i typically keep as open a mind as possible as long as it does not interfere with my values. that being said, i did not know of any association between ron paul and alex jones. now that i do know that exists, it tarnishes my image of ron paul but it doesn't distract me from certain things he represents.

i guess it's up to me to spend as much time as possible reading through threads that have the words "ron paul" in them.

once again, your input is greatly appreciated.

oh, i know a lot of you military guys may be privy to information that most citizens wouldn't know. in that sense, i'm always curious as to how the average citizen can acquire more "truth" than we are given on tv.

oh! one more thing. the only thing about 9/11 that "makes me wonder" are a few instances of government knowledge that certain things were happening and we did nothing about it (or not enough). same thing happened in fort hood.

[American Patriot]

guys, thanks again for your input. there is A LOT of material on this site . and it is definitely time consuming to sort through. i have a lot of beliefs and ideas that are unexplored and untested. i enjoy learning new information and crediting/discrediting information as facts come across.

We're here to help!

i know a little bit about alex jones and most of what i've learned is that most of what he represents, i do not agree with. i do acknowledge that i read conspiracy theories and will engage in conversation about them, but it's mostly an endeavor to stay entertained. i typically keep as open a mind as possible as long as it does not interfere with my values. that being said, i did not know of any association between ron paul and alex jones. now that i do know that exists, it tarnishes my image of ron paul but it doesn't distract me from certain things he represents.

Years ago, when I was still an avid shortwave listener, I found Alex Jones. I was also a lot less discriminating on what I listened to, and discovered that he was preaching things that I thought in the back of my mind but had never investigated. Before the Internet came into existence we had ABC, CBS and NBC and in the 1980s CNN came into being.

Because that was the absolute authority on news in those days we had to believe what we were FED. Jones filled some gaps and I started to listen to him and even believe some of the shit.

There was a BIG to-do about "concentration camps" in America and by then I was involved with Olav and Anomalies and I started my OWN investigation. The Internet was getting bigger and the material being passed around was taken at face valued and for many believed absolutely.

Long story made short, I DID investigate the so-called concentration camps. They turned out to be absolute BULLSHIT and guess where most of the story originated? Alex Jones and some of his followers MADE IT UP.

The ORIGINAL source documents (which I found somewhere and kept on a web site for many years) pointed to ONE GUY who was "guessing". When I spoke to Jones about it he told me it was real and I was a fool for "not believing".

That's the day I changed my thinking, 100%, about "believing in things". Everything and anything. Unless you can see something with your own eyes, and take it apart, don't believe it. Investigate.

i guess it's up to me to spend as much time as possible reading through threads that have the words "ron paul" in them.

We don't have ALL the answers but here people tend to vet each other's work, or information - and each of us has a way to dig deeper. Dig, don't take my word, Backstop, Mal, Ryan's words for this. Check it out yourself. We can point, you need to follow the path though and read the signs, find the extra trails and look for tracks. Eventually, you will be able to throw out 90% of the BS and know for a fact which facts are true facts.

once again, your input is greatly appreciated.

oh, i know a lot of you military guys may be privy to information that most citizens wouldn't know. in that sense, i'm always curious as to how the average citizen can acquire more "truth" than we are given on tv.

We have a saying in the intelligence community and it is as true as anything you will discover on your own out there, "Eighty-Five percent of all intelligence can be gained by open source documentation".

Spies and those who collect classified intelligence for other countries against the US, or the US against them, do so to gain that last, tiny bit of knowledge they don't have.

Key pieces of information can be located simply by reading everything you can get. Not one SOURCE, but ALL sources. Take them all apart. By that I mean read each piece of information, each paragraph. Take from each one key pieces of data, write them down.

Go over all the documents, and write down your pieces of data and any evidence you glean (for your subject you're seeking) and when you have it in front of you it makes more sense.

So the "average citizen" IS or CAN BE as INFORMED as anyone in the military, and in some cases more so. I say this because I know the military, inside and out, all the services. They are normal people like you and me.

There are those who make it our BUSINESS to know what is going on around us, and that means everything. I read weather, intel reports, I read the base news papers, I listen to the Base Commanders saying things. Everything has intelligence in it, and collecting intelligence and KNOWING is big business today.

This IS the Information Age... Sources of information can be anything from company magazines, industry-related material, going to visit job fairs, or something like the Space Symposium we have here.

Case in point, the Space Symposium draws world FAMOUS spies (I know that's opposed to what you would think). People from every nation show up here in Colorado Springs looking for intelligence during that program.

When *I* travel, I am someone else. I am a "Writer" or I am a "Computer technician" or I "work for the local police department on their car radios". My wife and I travel under cover when we travel. Why? Because I don't want to be a target.

oh! one more thing. the only thing about 9/11 that "makes me wonder" are a few instances of government knowledge that certain things were happening and we did nothing about it (or not enough). same thing happened in fort hood.

A couple things... First we all read conspiracy theory and we try to understand WHERE it comes from before we try to understand the conspiracy itself.

The point is to UNDERSTAND the SOURCE. Not the conspiracy itself.

Secondly, it is now a foregone conclusion that INDEED certain government agencies DID know the process was going on. One knew about the terrorists going to flying schools. Others investigated them for illegal or outdated "student visas". Yet another thought something was up with two of the guys, but FAILED to take that information any further.

Had the data all been put together in one place, someone might have actually stopped it from happening.

So yes, in a way the Government DID know. The problem with this is though, it wasn't a CONSPIRACY. It was piss poor management, lousy intelligence gathering and having the wrong people, in the wrong places at the wrong time. In short it was incompetence and ignorance of the enemy.

[zenbudda]

rick,

thanks again for your time chief. i'm doing as much do-diligence as I can at this point to catch up on the discussions on this board. and "rest assured", I don't believe most of what i hear/read without a little fact checking of my own. i cannot say i'm doing a good job or bad job at my fact checking, but i do try. when i was married to my ex, she had a free subscription to statfor.com. it had a lot of interesting analyses (wtf is the plural of analysis, this spellchecker doesn't like my "es". lol) that one could use to tie in other stories being torn up by media.

anyway, your response confirmed and clarified a few things for me so it was definitely worth while. back to the boards i go.

[American Patriot]

That's why we are here, Zen....

Feel free to ask away. We will all try our best to give a good answer, or a good opinion. They say "Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink".

That's really not true. Not everyone has an opinion on things, and worse, most opinions aren't well thought out.

Here, you can rest assured that we all have decently well-thought-out opinions. They are educated opinions and we all have some expertise in what we're talking about or are at least well-read on the subject.

I'm an "expert" in a few things.... but I have a wide range of expertise in many things, not the least of which is intelligence and counter-intelligence. I'm not an "expert" and surely wouldn't consider myself one, but I do have a background in the subject.

Others here, while their jobs might not have taken them into that area, DO have a decent understanding of the subject.

[American Patriot]

More stuff about Alex Jones:

Alex Jones
Born	Alexander Emerich Jones February 11, 1974 (1974-02-11) (age 35) Dallas, Texas, U.S.
Occupation	Radio host, television host, film producer
Known for	Advocacy of: conspiracy theories, including New World Order theories; anti-world government; national sovereignty
Website ********.com

I guess my issue here is simple. While he and I agree that we do NOT want a "World Government" - our reasons aren't the same.

His reasoning is that a "World Government" usurps our Nationality. That's true. My reasoning is that it usurps EVERYONE'S Nationality.

My family came to American in the late 1600s or early 1700s as part of the Scotch-Irish immigration to "the new world". They left Ireland and Scotland to get away from the oppression of the British. They came here to be free men and women and managed for many years to do just that.

However, I retain my right to my heritage. Both my American and Irish heritage. That doesn't mean I'm more loyal to my Irish background at all. It simply means that we all come from somewhere, and we all have family memories and more.

So - people like Jones, who is by my standards a young man, don't see their past through the eyes of heritage. They see their past through the biased political views of extremists.

That brings me to my point, Jones hates Jews and believes in Conspiracy theories. There's something just not right with that. We have, right now in the world people like the president of Iran who says "The Holocaust never happened". Jones too, while he himself doesn't say those exact words that I can find, features Holocaust deniers on his show.

That puts him FIRMLY in the same court as America Haters.

For Ron Paul to join in that show constantly gives Paul a bad, very bad reputation. So even if he has all the right ideas... he goes about it completely in the wrong manner.

[American Patriot]

LOL!

I found this:

At 30 March, 2007 10:21, ryanmike83 said... I can guarantee that most of the viewers of this website have not done any real research into the topic of 9/11. I myself have spent numerous hours reading and researching facts. If you believe that some idiot Muslims trained in caves were able to defeat the highest spending military in the world then you are crazy and deserve to be grouped with the Holocaust deniers and global warming hoaxers. WAKE UP. I know it is hard to swallow the fact that governments lie to their populations to manipulate them. It is a fact not fiction why is implausible to accept that criminals at the upper echelon of our military industrial complex could have carried out such a dastardly deed? Do not get sucked into the phony left-right paradym. It is a false reality. They are both working in the same business like the Gambinos and Genoveses. They all act like they are completely different but when you try and stop the game they come together to denounce skeptics. I can not convince anyone they must convince themselves. I used to be a kool-aid drinker until I WOKE UP. You can do the same or maintain you kool-aid dilusions.

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com...ut-of-911.html



That's the site. They track the so-called "Truthers" a bit and this is what some asshole wrote on the site.

I don't read that site, but I PROMISE you I have done research on this crap, and honest-to-God it IS CRAP.



I love these two lines: If you believe that some idiot Muslims trained in caves were able to defeat the highest spending military in the world then you are crazy and deserve to be grouped with the Holocaust deniers and global warming hoaxers.



And: I can not convince anyone they must convince themselves. I used to be a kool-aid drinker until I WOKE UP.




This is a PRIME example of someone who THINKS they know something and their research consists of reading truther sites.

The fact is there aren't any FACTS in the sites, so convincing "yourself" that something is wrong is pretty easy.

I think we can make up some damnable conspiracy and track it, and will make it into the mainstream in little time at all if it is sensational enough.

[American Patriot]

http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/...r-consequences

Truther Consequences
Meet the next Glenn Beck.


Alex Jones is a husky man with short sandy hair, weary eyes, baby cheeks, and the kind of deep, gravelly voice made for horror-movie trailers. And it’s horror he has in mind. "Your New World Order will fall!" he screams through a megaphone at the shiny façade of a nondescript office building. "Humanity will defeat you!"

A syndicated radio host, filmmaker, and all-around countercultural icon based in Austin, Texas, Jones has long been one of the country’s most significant purveyors of paranoia. His 2007 documentary Endgame: Blueprint for Global Enslavement, in which the megaphone scene takes place, purports to reveal a eugenics-obsessed global elite bent on eliminating most of the earth’s population and enslaving the rest. Members of a Satanic international network, Jones explains in an ominous voiceover, have been "steering planetary affairs for hundreds of years. Now, in the final stage, they prepare for open world government." And, in a line that would later echo among tea party protesters nationwide, he says, "The answer to 1984 is 1776!”

Though Jones has always had impassioned fans, until recently, he has remained a quintessentially marginal figure. A leader of the 9/11 Truth movement--he’s listed as an executive producer on the final cut of Loose Change, a documentary at the movement’s center--Jones claims to have uncovered the interconnected plots behind the JFK assassination, water fluoridation, and the recent economic crisis. He has accused the Illuminati of putting its symbols in the Starbucks logo as a taunting show of strength. Ron Paul is a frequent guest on his radio show, and Jones, who also runs a website called RonPaulWarRoom.com, has been a major supporter of the Ron Paul movement. One of his highest-profile guests was Lou Dobbs--Jones calls him one of his "idols"--who appeared on the show in March 2008; the two discussed ostensible plans to merge the United States into a supranational "North American Union" with Mexico and Canada.

But it’s really only since Barack Obama’s election, when Jones turned the full force of his apocalyptic imagination toward the new president, that his ideas have found purchase in the conservative mainstream. Several Republican officeholders, from state representatives to congressmen, have appeared on his program to trade wild theories about Obama. Glenn Beck has brought his fear-mongering about the New World Order to network television, and an online Fox News show collaborated with him on a joint broadcast.

To be sure, sundry leftists, as well as some Hollywood types, appear on Jones’s show, as well. Dennis Kucinich and Noam Chomsky have both been on. It’s where actor Charlie Sheen goes to spout his 9/11 Truth theories. But left-wing craziness tends to stay sequestered on the fringes of politics, while the right-wing fringe increasingly is the Republican mainstream. According to a recent Public Policy Polling survey, only 37 percent of Republicans believe that Obama was born in the United States. Jones has become politically salient because much of the right is as unhinged as he is.



Alex Jones speaks in capital letters, every word ringing with hypnotic urgency. His four-hour weekday radio broadcast, airing online and on some 60 stations nationwide, begins with the Star Wars Darth Vader theme, and his opening monologues resound with science-fictional melodrama. "This transmission is absolutely essential," began a typical dispatch on September 10, 2009. "All the different pieces of the puzzle are now coming together." He then seesawed between the plausible and the insane: an Israeli attack on Iran may be in the offing; Girl Scouts are being trained as fascist spies; the dollar is falling; the government plans to round up the citizenry and shoot them in the back of the head.

Passionately isolationist and antiZionist, his radio program and websites, ********.com and ************.com, occupy the shadowy territory where the far right curves around and meets the far left. "People on left-wing blog sites are constantly recommending him," says Chip Berlet, senior analyst at Political Research Associates, a progressive think tank that monitors right-wing movements. Berlet says he often gets e-mails from would-be leftists saying, "You’re such an idiot. You should listen to Alex Jones."

Nevertheless, Jones’s roots are very much on the far right. He represents an old strain of American conservatism--isolationist, anti-Wall Street, paranoid about elite conspiracies--that last flowered during the John Birch Society’s heyday. He began his radio broadcasting career in 1996, in his early twenties, with the Austin-based show "The Final Edition," which promulgated all sorts of black-helicopter theories about Bill Clinton. Steeped in the rhetoric of the militia movement, he’s long been a champion of Randy Weaver, the white supremacist whose wife and son were killed in 1992 by federal agents at Ruby Ridge, Idaho. (He’s asserted that the people behind Ruby Ridge and Waco were also behind the 1993 World Trade Center bombings--"Clinton’s Reichstag.")

Unlike most Clinton-haters, Jones (who didn’t respond to interview requests) hated George W. Bush just as much. To him, both Democrats and Republicans are puppets of the same set of rapacious moneymen who have hatched the New World Order conspiracy. So, when the World Trade Center was attacked again in 2001, Jones didn’t hesitate to blame the government for what he saw as an atrocity perpetrated by the global elites in their drive to enslave the world’s population.

Until recently, Jones’s search for mainstream allies has been less than fruitful. During the Bush years, when the conservative movement acknowledged Jones at all, it was to mock and revile him. In March 2006, Sean Hannity ridiculed Charlie Sheen for spinning September 11 conspiracy theories on Jones’s show. In May 2007, Michelle Malkin argued that Ron Paul’s associations with Jones and the 9/11 Truth movement should disqualify him from participating in GOP primary debates. Last year, Bill O’Reilly ran outtakes from Jones’s interview with fellow Truther Willie Nelson on a segment about "the dumbest things that have been said in the past three months."

But, since Obama’s election, the ridicule has died down. On March 15, Jones released a documentary called The Obama Deception, which has been widely advertised in conservative media and viewed more than four million times on YouTube. The Obama Deception is basically a more detailed version of the dystopian scenario promoted night after night on Beck. Arguing that Obama is the front man for an oligarchy working to create a planetary totalitarian state, it is like The Protocols of the Elders of Zion stripped of any reference to Jews.

Three days after The Obama Deception was released, the online Fox News show "Freedom Watch"--hosted by the network’s senior judicial analyst, Andrew Napolitano--did a joint broadcast with Jones. "I am so happy because we’re doing something different right now," Napolitano announced at the start of his March 18 program. "We are simulcasting with the one, the only, the great Alex Jones on Alex Jones radio!"

Jones appeared on a split screen with Napolitano. "What are you talking about today?" Napolitano asked him. "Oh, just how hundreds of mainstream news articles a week are saying there is a new world order, a global government, it will be run by the very banks that are collapsing society by design, and we will pay carbon taxes to them," Jones replied. He went on in that vein for a few moments. Then Napolitano said, approvingly, "I appreciate what you’re exposing ... I must tell you that there was a time when the types of things that you are warning against was not discussed openly and publicly." FoxNews.com has also echoed Jones’s warnings that plans to contain swine flu were a pretext to establish martial law--citing his ********.com as a website that "has been tracking disturbing developments in swine flu preparedness"--and, on September 22, Napolitano appeared on Fox News claiming, in a mix of exaggerations and outright falsehoods, that Massachusetts was on the verge of enacting legislation that would allow police to set up swine-flu quarantines, barge into homes, and snatch unvaccinated children.

Some conservatives have groaned to see the newfound respect Jones is getting. So far, though, no one has paid a price for associating with him. In late July, Republican Congressman Louie Gohmert of Texas appeared on Jones’s show to discuss the "nation-ending" potential of Obama’s policies and the country’s incipient march toward eugenics and fascism. "Did you hear about the White House science czar calling for putting stuff in the water to sterilize us?" Jones asked him. Gohmert allowed that he had not, but he didn’t seem particularly surprised. A few minutes later, Jones asked the congressman for his thoughts about "the youth brigades, national compulsory service," that the Democrats had in store. "[T]his stuff has been done before," Gohmert said. "It was done in the 1930s, and that was not the only place it’s been done."

"Mao did it," added Jones.

"Well, that’s exactly what I was thinking of," replied Gohmert.

Bidding him goodbye, Jones told him, "We’re glad you’re there fighting, and we’re supporting you, sir, and Ron Paul and many others." For Jones, the struggle is a lot less lonely than it used to be.

Michelle Goldberg is a senior correspondent for The American Prospect. Her most recent book, The Means of Reproduction: Sex, Power and the Future of the World, was published this year by Penguin Press.

[zenbudda]

yeah, for me, loose change was a good science fiction conspiracy theory (with bad science, like most science fiction, it's still entertaining). as soon as the young man narrating the show started talking about the plumes of smoke bursting out of the windows pre and post collapse, i knew it was going to be full of mis-interpreted science.

i did not know lou dobbs was associated with alex jones this way. makes sense as to how things are unfolding for him. i can also see why ron paul isn't picking up much more momentum if he's taking the ******** gang with him.

as far as that one goon who wrote that response, all i can say is "typical".

[American Patriot]

I will continue this thread with some other thoughts. Some of these guys say the right things. They talk about big government being too big. But then they think that the government is "just bad" altogether. That's simply not true. There are certainly problems with the way our government is being run, and has been run for some time.

But those problems are correctable through the system, by voting. The REAL problem in this country lies directly in misinformation among people... the PEOPLE being those who can FIX the problem by voting.

There are those who strive to keep everyone misdirected and misinformed, such as the material we read from Alex Jones. He is deliberately attempting to press the "Government Conspiracy in everything" subject and works diligently to connect dots that aren't even on the graph paper.

In theory, all of the so-called Conspiracy Theories have SOME truth in them. In FACT rarely do the nuggets of truth even relate in any manner.

Richard Hoagland, having nothing to do with the normal political conspiracy theories originally is another tale-spinner who takes pieces of this and parts of that and connects them through the use of numerology... if indeed "numerology" could even be a phrase given to what he does.

These guys are good at doing this and confusing issues.

It is the confused issue problem that I have constantly, consistently fought against since the first day I started helping with the Forums on Anomalies. I started fighting this stuff back in the days of Email Lists with the Survivalists. Before that, on my own BBSes. As far back as the 1970s I have been fighting against MISINFORMATION and misdirection.

It's a losing battle though because as soon as I convince one person to re-read something and understand it in the context it was written, ten more show up on a site with "Did you hear about this or that conspiracy theory?"

The John Titor Story is one of the biggest FARCES in history. And yet, what do we get? Every DAY someone looking for John, or Pam, or me, or Darby asking "What was it like?" or "I think he was real, what's your opinion" and when I give my opinion I'm called names.

One thing I like to do on this site is to question things I read. Not because I am distrustful of those posting things. But because I want those who POST the material to have actually gone through it carefully.

Sometimes you will see me take a subject and post everything I can locate on the subject. There's a reason. To get folks to READ IT ALL and form an opinion on their own. I don't always post MY opinion, just the material.

This is to get YOU guys to read it and think it over. Sometimes I believe it, most of the time I think it's a crock of shit and I want everyone to read and come to a conclusion (hopefully the RIGHT conclusion) on their own.

When it comes down to it, people like Jones, Hoagland, Paul - are all part of the same group of people. Perhaps they have different subjects, but they are all still trying to confuse the public instead of INFORMING them.

MY job, our job here, is to INFORM with real information (and you will notice Mal will question stuff *I* post sometimes... and I encourage everyone to do so!)