Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 23

Thread: China's "Underground Great Wall" and Nuclear Deterrence

  1. #1
    Creepy Ass Cracka & Site Owner Ryan Ruck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    25,061
    Thanks
    52
    Thanked 78 Times in 76 Posts

    Exclamation China's "Underground Great Wall" and Nuclear Deterrence

    China's "Underground Great Wall" and Nuclear Deterrence
    December 16, 2009


    China's "underground Great Wall"

    In early December, the People's Liberation Army's (PLA) publication, China Defense Daily (Zhongguo Guofang Bao), published a report that provided a rare glimpse into an underground tunnel that is being built by the Second Artillery Corps (SAC)—the PLA's strategic missile forces—in the mountainous regions of Hebei Province in northern China. The network of tunnels reportedly stretches for more than 3,107 miles (Ta Kung Pao, December 11; Xinhua News Agency, December 14). The revelation of the semi-underground tunnel highlights the strides being made by China's nuclear modernization efforts, and underscores a changing deterrent relationship between the United States and China.

    The labyrinthine tunnel system, dubbed by the Chinese-media as the "Underground Great Wall" (Dixia Changcheng), was built for concealing, mobilizing and deploying China's growing arsenal of nuclear weapons. According to military experts cited by various reports, the main purpose of the underground tunnel is to provide the SAC with a credible second-strike capability. The building of an underground tunnel for this purpose is consistent with China's evolving nuclear doctrine from its traditional posture of "minimum deterrence" to a doctrine of "limited deterrence," since the subterranean bunkers strengthen the survivability of China's nuclear forces and bolster its nuclear deterrence posture.

    Analysts have long speculated that the SAC' most important underground missile positions were located in the mountainous area in northern China. The geography of this region is cut by steep cliffs and canyons, and therefore suited for use in covering the network of tunnels that is 3,017 miles and can feed a web of underground launch silos. According to a military analyst cited by Hong Kong-based Ta Kung Pao, "the outermost layer is 1,000 meters [3,280 feet] deep and covered with soil that does not include any artificial reinforcements" (Ta Kung Pao, December 11; Xinhua News Agency, December 14). Moreover, the Chinese reports described the tunnel system in terms of "hard and deeply buried targets" (HDBTs), which typically refers to facilities a few hundred feet deep in "underground installations." In the of case of strategic nuclear missiles, it would mean that all preparations can be completed underground, and the transportation of missiles, equipments and personnel through a network of underground corridors by rail cars or heavy-duty trailers to fixed launch sites can not be detected from observations on the ground (Ta Kung Pao, December 11; News.sina.com, December 13; Xinhua News Agency, December 14).

    The SAC arsenal of land-based nuclear warheads is believed to include the DF-3A, DF-4, DF-5 (CSS-4), DF-21, DF-31 and the DF-31A. These land-based ballistic missiles have a range of 200 to 5,000 kilometers. According to one U.S.-estimate, "China has approximately 176 deployed warheads, plus an unknown number of stored warheads, for a total stockpile of approximately 240 warheads" (Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, Vol. 64, No. 3).

    This report is not the first time that the existence of a tunnel of such magnitude was revealed. As early as 1995, according to a report in the Liberation Army Daily cited by Ta Kung Pao, a SAC project called the "Great Wall" was completed after 10 years of construction through the labor of "tens of thousands" of army engineers. Furthermore, the Chinese-television program, "Documentary for Military," aired by Chinese-state run television network CCTV on March 24, 2008, also revealed the status of an underground nuclear counter-strike project called the "great wall project" (Ta Kung Pao, December 11; News.sina.com, December 13).

    An article published in the Taiwan-based Asia-Pacific Defense Magazine, entitled "A Destructive Projection Power: PLA Second Artillery Corps' Long-range Guided Missiles," by former Taiwanese Vice Admiral Lan Ning-li, included an analysis that also discussed underground installations of the Second Artillery Corps. According to Vice Admiral Lan's assessment: "The early version of China's mid-to long-range missiles had all been deployed above ground and were vulnerable to detection by spy satellites and attacks by interceptor missiles. That prompted the Chinese military to move all of their missiles hundreds of meters underground" (Ta Kung Pao, December 11; Chosun Ilbo, December 14). Moreover, a Hong Kong-based military analyst cited by Ta Kung Pao suggested that the timing of the open declaration about China's nuclear modernization before negotiations on the Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty may be meant to draw attention to China's nuclear stature (Ta Kung Pao, December 11; News.sina.com, December 13).

    Yet, while deterrence assumes that a more secure second-strike capability could enhance stability by causing adversaries to act more cautiously, some analysts have pointed out that strategic stability may not be the necessary outcome of China's deployment of a secure second-strike capability (See "The Future of Chinese Deterrence Strategy," China Brief, March 4). Since China continues to conceal details about the size and composition of its nuclear stockpile, this may lead to more concerns from China's regional neighbors over Beijing's nuclear modernization.

  2. #2
    Expatriate American Patriot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    A Banana Republic, Central America
    Posts
    48,612
    Thanks
    82
    Thanked 28 Times in 28 Posts

    Default Re: China's "Underground Great Wall" and Nuclear Deterrence

    Oh boy. It's FINALLY OUT!!!!!!

    Wow. Ok, let me just say... I've been saying "Wake UP" about China a long time.

    Now you all know.
    Libertatem Prius!


    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




  3. #3
    Postman vector7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Where it's quiet, peaceful and everyone owns guns
    Posts
    21,663
    Thanks
    30
    Thanked 73 Times in 68 Posts

    Default Re: China's "Underground Great Wall" and Nuclear Deterrence

    Nah, go back to sleep...yer wearing that tinfoil hat way too tight.

    Quote Originally Posted by vector7 View Post
    This could also be posted in "Be Prepared To Learn Chinese"

    Soros: China should lead ‘new world order’


    By Daniel Tencer
    Wednesday, October 28th, 2009 -- 3:56 pm




    China should step up to the plate as the leader of a new global economic order, and the US shouldn't fear the establishment of a global currency because it would help the economy, billionaire investor George Soros says.

    In a recent interview with the Financial Times, Soros said that China hasn't been pulling its weight in reorganizing the global economy after last year's economic collapse, and the way to convince China to lead is to allow it to "own" the reorganization of the global financial system that is underway.

    "You really need to bring China into the creation of a new world order, a financial world order," Soros told FT. "They are kind of reluctant members of the IMF. They play along, but they don’t make much of a contribution because it’s not their institution. ... They have to own it the same way as, let’s say, the United States owns the Washington consensus, the current order, and I think this would be a more stable one where you would have co-ordinated policies. I think the makings of it are already there because the G20, in agreeing to peer reviews, effectively is moving in that direction."

    Peer reviews are a mechanism by which members of the G20 club of economic powers can review other members' economic performance and warn those members of dangers to their economies.

    Soros also advocated for the creation of at least a limited global currency, which he says would help reduce the imbalances in the global economic structure and would actually benefit the United States, whose dollar currently acts as a de facto global currency.
    Quote Originally Posted by vector7 View Post
    Obama to allow Russian visits at U.S. nuclear sites

    FOXNews.com
    Tuesday, October 13, 2009



    Russia and the United States have tentatively agreed to a weapons inspection program that would allow Russians to visit nuclear sites in America to count missiles and warheads.

    The plan, which Fox News has learned was agreed to in principle during negotiations, would constitute the most intrusive weapons inspection program the U.S. has ever accepted.

    Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, who met with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, said publicly Tuesday that the two nations have made "considerable" progress toward reaching agreement on a new strategic arms treaty.

    The 1991 Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty, or START, expires in December and negotiators have been racing to reach agreement on a successor.

    Clinton said the U.S. would be as transparent as possible.

    "We want to ensure that every question that the Russian military or Russian government asks is answered," she said, calling missile defense "another area for deep cooperation between our countries."
    On another critical issue, Lavrov declared that it would be counterproductive to threaten Iran with more sanctions over its nuclear program -- as he resisted efforts by Clinton to win agreement for tougher measures should Iran fail to prove its program is peaceful.

    Clinton visited Moscow on her first trip since becoming America's top diplomat, in an effort to gauge Moscow's willingness to join the U.S. in imposing sanctions.

    Clinton said the U.S. agreed it was important to pursue diplomacy with Iran.

    "At the same time that we are very vigorously pursuing this track, we are aware that we might not be as successful as we need to be, so we have always looked at the potential of sanctions in the event we are not successful and cannot assure ourselves and others that Iran has decided not to pursue nuclear weapons," she said at a joint news conference.

    Iran insists it has the right to a full domestic nuclear enrichment program and maintains it is only for peaceful purposes, such as energy production.

    President Obama -- who visited Russia in July -- has vowed to "reset" U.S.-Russia relations. On Tuesday, Clinton apologized for missing that meeting because of a broken elbow.

    "But now both my elbow and our relationships are reset and we're moving forward, which I greatly welcome," she said.

    She was to meet with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev later Tuesday.

    Fox News' Dana Lewis and The Associated Press contributed to this report.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    US treaty inspections to end at Russia missile plant: report


    by Staff Writers
    Moscow (AFP) Dec 1, 2009

    US arms inspectors must end their almost 15-year monitoring of Russia's main missile plant this week, as the key US-Russia nuclear treaty expires, a Russian military-diplomatic source said Tuesday. Under the old Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty, or START, up to 30 US experts monitored traffic to and from Russia's foremost missile factory in the remote village of Votkinsk, about 580 kilometres (360 miles) northeast of Moscow.

    "By December 5, when START expires, the team of US inspectors must fully dismantle their equipment and leave the Votkinsk factory," the source told Russian state news agency Interfax.

    US and Russian negotiators have held frenetic talks in Geneva in recent months to thrash out a replacement for START, which imposes strict limits on the nuclear arsenals of the two former Cold War foes.

    A major obstacle to a deal was eliminated in September when the US President Barack Obama's White House announced it was scrapping a plan to deploy a missile shield in eastern Europe, fiercely opposed by Russia.

    But talks have reportedly hit a snag over the monitor missions to Russia.

    Moscow wants to jettison any controls of its missile production under a new treaty, while Washington says monitoring is needed to ensure Russia complies with limits on the number of its nuclear-capable missiles.

    "The situation under which the US inspectors conduct 24-hour controls on the activity of the Votkinsk factory cannot be seen as fair or balanced," the military source said.

    "It would be inexpedient to transfer these terms to the new contract."

    Russia views the US inspections as non-reciprocal because the US has no such plants producing mobile missiles for possible monitoring.

    Moscow manufactures Topol-M and Bulava nuclear-capable intercontinental ballistic missiles at the plant.

    START, signed in 1991 just before the break-up of the Soviet Union, bound both sides to deep cuts in their nuclear arsenals and to limits on long-range missiles.

    At a Moscow summit in July, Obama and his Russian counterpart Dmitry Medvedev agreed to reduce their nuclear arsenal to between 1,500 and 1,675 warheads apiece within seven years.

    They also agreed to cut the number of ballistic missile carriers to between 500 and 1,100.

    Quote Originally Posted by vector7 View Post
    Not the same topic but similar to the post above. Someone is giving Russia and now China more access to our National Security capabilities.

    Top Chinese general to visit US: Pentagon

    2 hrs 39 mins ago



    WASHINGTON (AFP) – China's second-ranking military officer will travel to Washington later this month on a week-long visit designed to promote trust and avoid "misunderstandings," the Pentagon said Wednesday.

    General Xu Caihou, vice chairman of the People's Liberation Army central military commission, will hold high-level meetings from October 24-31 and visit military commands and bases across the United States, press secretary Geoff Morrell told a news conference.

    Since Defense Secretary Robert Gates paid a visit to China two years ago, the Chinese official "has been committed to fostering a better and deeper strategic dialogue with that country, especially better trust and transparency between our two militaries," Morrell said.

    Gates "has been pushing for quite some time to have this kind of visit," he said.

    "The more transparency there is, the more dialogue that goes on, the less chance there is for a misunderstanding between two very formidable powers on the world's stage," Morrell said.

    China is in the midst of a drive to modernize its armed forces and has announced large military budget increases in recent years, prompting US officials to question Beijing's intentions.

    The two nations also experienced a series of standoffs involving Chinese vessels and US navy ships in waters off China earlier this year.
    China cut military exchanges with the United States for months last year over a proposed 6.5-billion-dollar US arms package to Taiwan, but agreed to resume them in February.

    Since then, the two countries have held several rounds of military talks.

    During his tour, the Chinese general was due to visit sites from all the US armed services, including the US Naval Academy in Maryland, US Strategic Command in Nebraska, Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada, the US Army's Fort Benning in Georgia, the North Island Naval Air Station in San Diego and US Pacific Command in Hawaii, Morrell said.

    "We will show him a great deal of how our military operates in this country," he added.
    Quote Originally Posted by vector7 View Post
    More deals with China at the same time we are folding to the Russians

    EXCLUSIVE: Obama loosens missile technology controls to China



    By Bill Gertz INSIDE THE RING

    President Obama recently shifted authority for approving sales to China of missile and space technology from the White House to the Commerce Department -- a move critics say will loosen export controls and potentially benefit Chinese missile development.

    The president issued a little-noticed "presidential determination" Sept. 29 that delegated authority for determining whether missile and space exports should be approved for China to Commerce Secretary Gary Locke.

    Commerce officials say the shift will not cause controls to be loosened in regards to the export of missile and space technology.

    Eugene Cottilli, a spokesman for Commerce's Bureau of Industry and Security, said under new policy the U.S. government will rigorously monitor all sensitive exports to China.

    TWT RELATED STORIES:
    'Dead' al Qaeda terrorist surfaces for media
    Michigan town lobbies for Gitmo transfers
    Top Treasury posts stay empty in financial crisis

    The presidential notice alters a key provision of the 1999 Defense Authorization Act that required that the president notify Congress whether a transfer of missile and space technology to China would harm the U.S. space-launch industry or help China's missile programs.
    The law was passed after a late-1990s scandal involving the U.S. companies Space Systems/Loral and Hughes Electronics Corp.

    Both companies improperly shared technology with China and were fined $20 million and $32 million, respectively, by the State Department after a U.S. government investigation concluded that their know-how was used to improve China's long-range nuclear missiles.

    Section 1512 of the 1999 law requires the president to certify to Congress in advance of any missile equipment or technology exports to China that the export will not harm the U.S. space-launch industry and that "missile equipment or technology, including any indirect technical benefit that could be derived from such export, will not measurably improve the missile or space launch capabilities of the People's Republic of China."

    The new policy appears aimed at increasing U.S.-China space cooperation, which has been limited since the Loral and Hughes case. It follows the Chinese military's test of an anti-satellite missile that produced potentially dangerous space junk after the missile destroyed a Chinese weather satellite in a January 2007 test.

    Henry Sokolski, director of the Nonproliferation Policy Education Center, said restoring Commerce Department control over the sensitive experts is a "step backward."

    "It's as though Commerce's mishandling of missile-tech transfers to China in the 1990s never happened," said Mr. Sokolski, a former Pentagon proliferation specialist. "But it did. As a result, we are now facing much more accurate, reliable missiles from China."

    Mr. Sokolski said he expects the U.S. government under the new policy to again boost Chinese military modernization through "whatever renewed 'benign' missile technology" is approved.

    "It was foolish for us to do this in the 1990s and is even more dangerous for us to do now," he said.

    Gary Milhollin, director of the Wisconsin Project on Nuclear Arms Control, which monitors export control policies, said he was surprised by the decision to shift responsibility back to Commerce -- a change that Presidents Clinton and George W. Bush did not make.

    "It is shocking that it would be delegated to the secretary of commerce, whose job it is to promote trade, rather than to the secretary of state or the secretary of defense, who have far more knowledge and responsibility within their organizations for missile technology," Mr. Milhollin said.

    Mr. Milhollin said a similar delegation of power would have been criticized in previous administrations. "In fact, the delegation turns the present law upside down because Congress passed it after finding that the Commerce Department had improperly helped China import U.S. missile technology in the 1990s," he said.

    Edward Timperlake, a Pentagon technology-security official during the George W. Bush administration, said he agrees that the new policy likely will loosen export controls on dual-use technology that could be used to boost China's large-scale missile program.

    China's military recently displayed new long-range and cruise missiles during a military parade in Beijing marking the 60th anniversary of communist rule.

    "It looks like we're going to have Loral-Hughes part two," Mr. Timperlake said of the policy shift.

    "The issue is that this will renew the pattern and practices of the Department of Commerce in the 1990s, when sensitive technology flowed under the rubric of space cooperation and, tragically, the Chinese ICBM force was fixed and modernized," he said.

    Mr. Timperlake said the new policy is "greenlighting engagement with China in very bad areas that will negatively impact United States' national security."

    Petraeus: No
    Debate over a new troop surge, this one in Afghanistan, is again throwing the political spotlight on Gen. David H. Petraeus.

    "Former Senate Majority Leader Bob Dole of Kansas, the Republican nominee in 1996, told Politico that he would like to see Army four-star Gen. David Petraeus - the head of the U.S. Central Command, which includes Iraq and Afghanistan -- run for president as a latter-day Ike," the news organization's heavyweights, Mike Allen and Jim VandeHei, wrote last month.

    Of course, Dwight D. Eisenhower, our 34th president, is the most famous general-politician. Most recently, Gen. Wesley K. Clark, a retired four-star Army general and former commander of NATO, ran unsuccessfully for the White House in 2004.

    But Gen. Petraeus, who has undergone treatment for prostate cancer, denies that he has any political aspirations. He has no intention of changing his mind, a colleague told special correspondent Rowan Scarborough. The colleague asked not to be named because he was discussing private conversations.

    The publicity recalls the first time the topic of Gen. Petraeus as a political candidate arose. As the Iraq troops surge proved successful in late 2007, pundits began floating his name.

    "Gen. David Petraeus has a sterling reputation, the love of the press and the adoration of the GOP," wrote the liberal American Prospect in January 2008. "Don't be surprised if a Democratic presidential win in '08 starts an effort to recruit Petraeus as the Republican candidate in '12."
    The clatter became so incessant that year that Gen. Petraeus, then the top general in Iraq, convened a meeting of a few close advisers to find a way to put out the fire and end the

    He had invoked "Shermanesque" type statements to no avail. When Civil War Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman was being prodded to run as a Republican in the 1884 election, he said, "I will not accept if nominated and will not serve if elected."

    Since then, that statement has been uttered in various forms by scores of American politicians, including President Lyndon Johnson when he declined to run for re-election in 1968.

    But Sherman was failing Gen. Petraeus. He wanted a new way of saying "no."

    That is when his public relations officer, Col. Steven A. Boylan, tapped into his love of country music. He suggested the general recite a classic song, "What Part of No Don't You Understand?"

    The general was immediately intrigued. "Find me exactly what was said and who said it," Gen. Petraeus ordered.

    Col. Boylan researched, found the 1992 Lorrie Morgan hit and the lyrics and presented them to his boss.

    By April 2008, Gen. Petraeus had the world audience he needed. Brian Williams asked him on "The NBC Nightly News" if he had a political future.

    "Never," the general answered. "And I've tried to say that on a number of occasions. Some folks have reminded me of a country-western song that says 'What part of no, don't you understand?' "

    B61 update
    Congressional appropriators have compromised in the fight over funding a study to extend the shelf life of a 1960s nuclear bomb that the Pentagon said is urgently needed for NATO and the new F-35 jet.

    Conferees working on Energy Department appropriations earlier this month agreed to approve $32.5 million of the $65 million requested by the Obama administration for the B61 nuclear bomb life extension program study, according to the Joint Explanatory Statement of the Committee of Conference.

    Under the compromise, the Energy Department's National Nuclear Security Administration also will be able to shift $15 million more from other programs to the bomb upgrade once the Pentagon completes its Nuclear Posture Review.

    The House Appropriations subcommittee on energy and water cut all funds for the B61 upgrade because of what the subcommittee said was a lack of direction for U.S. nuclear weapons. The counterpart Senate Appropriations subcommittee version of the funding bill contained the full $56 million request.

    The B61 upgrade study will help meet a deadline of 2017 for modifying the bomb so it can be carried by the F-35, according to defense officials. The F-16s that now can carry the bomb are being phased out of service over the next eight years.

    The U.S. Strategic Command has said the B61 is the oldest nuclear weapon in the stockpile and needs "urgent upgrades" to include modern safety and security features.

    Command briefing slides show that the B61 upgrade would boost reliability by upgrading arming, fusing and firing.

    Climate spying?
    The recent creation of a CIA center to study climate change does not mean the agency will be conducting espionage operations against greenhouse-gas emitters or spying on polluted skies or rivers around the world.

    "This small unit -- which will engage closely with its government counterparts and private-sector experts -- is focused solely on the potential national security implications of climate change," said CIA spokesman George Little.

    "Of course, intelligence is provided only to our government," he said. "This isn't about deploying clandestine officers to take air samples in polluted cities or to monitor sea lions. It's about developing analytical insights for policymakers."

    The CIA announced Sept. 24 that it had created the Center on Climate Change and National Security, led by analysts within the Directorate of Intelligence and the Directorate of Science and Technology.

    It will examine the national security impact of climate-change phenomena, such as desertification, rising sea levels, population shifts and heightened competition for natural resources.

    "Decision-makers need information and analysis on the effects climate change can have on security. The CIA is well-positioned to deliver that intelligence," said CIA Director Leon E. Panetta.

    Much of the work will focus on reviewing and declassifying satellite images and other data that could be useful for scientists.

    The center also will involve "outreach" to academics and think tanks.

    "The goal is a powerful asset recognized throughout our government, and beyond, for its knowledge and insight," the CIA statement said.
    Meanwhile...

    Quote Originally Posted by vector7 View Post
    * JANUARY 4, 2010
    Chinese Evade U.S. Sanctions on Iran

    By PETER FRITSCH
    Comments

    Chinese companies banned from doing business in the U.S. for allegedly selling missile technology to Iran continue to do a brisk trade with American companies, according to an analysis of shipping records.

    A unit of state-owned China Precision Machinery Import-Export Corp., for example, has made nearly 300 illegal shipments to U.S. firms since a ban was imposed on CPMIEC and its affiliates in mid-2006, according to an analysis of shipping records by the Wisconsin Project on Nuclear Arms Control, a nonprofit proliferation watchdog.

    A Wall Street Journal review of the records and interviews with officials at some of the American companies indicate that the U.S. firms likely were unaware they were doing business with banned entities, and in many cases were tripped up by altered company names.

    The CPMIEC shipments, worth millions of dollars, include everything from anchors and drilling equipment to automobile parts and toys. In many cases, CPMIEC acted as a shipping intermediary -- activity also banned under a 2006 presidential order.

    The ability of CPMIEC and other foreign companies to continue doing business in the U.S. despite the sanctions comes as the Obama administration considers fresh economic sanctions against Iran. The illegal shipments suggest that U.S. sanctions have become so numerous and complex that they have become difficult to enforce.

    More

    * Iran Plans Large-Scale War Games

    "We spend a lot of time convincing other countries that we need tighter sanctions on Iran when we need to better enforce our own laws already on the books," says Wisconsin Project director Gary Milhollin, a former consultant to the Pentagon on nuclear-proliferation matters.



    Responsibility for enforcing sanctions falls to the Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Control, or OFAC, an office with 69 investigators and a 2009 budget of $29 million. OFAC is responsible for enforcing more than 20 sanctions programs targeting everything from nuclear proliferators and terror financiers to illegal imports of Cuban cigars.

    OFAC hasn't fined any U.S. companies for trading with CPMIEC or other Chinese companies banned in 2006. In response to inquiries from the Journal, Treasury Department officials investigated CPMIEC and its subsidiaries further. On Thursday, OFAC added one CPMIEC unit to its list of banned companies.

    "If we see U.S. companies that are knowingly engaging in transactions with a proliferation target or front company, or that those targets are attempting to circumvent U.S. sanctions, we pursue those cases aggressively," says OFAC Director Adam Szubin in an interview. Overall, he says, the sanctions program makes it difficult for nuclear proliferators to do business in the U.S.
    [iran sanctions and china business]

    In June 2006, the U.S. banned CPMIEC and three other Chinese companies from conducting business in the U.S., citing their alleged sales of missile technology to Iran in defiance of previous sanctions. Two months later, a shipment of oil-drainage tanks from Shanghai landed at the port of Tacoma, Wash., bound for a New York City firm, American Forge & Foundry Inc. The shipper: a unit of CPMIEC, according to a shipping record known as a bill of lading.

    Officials at CPMIEC didn't respond to written questions from the Journal.

    U.S. enforcement officials say it can be difficult for U.S. companies to avoid doing business with foreign companies and individuals under sanction. Problems with translating company names can be an issue, they say. Sanctioned companies also have proved adept at creating aliases or subsidiary shell companies to mask their ownership, they say.

    "To the extent that a U.S. institution does process a transaction for a designated entity, those transactions tend to be inadvertent and are corrected quickly upon detection," says the OFAC's Mr. Szubin.

    It is unlikely that most U.S. companies knowingly flout the import bans: Criminal penalties for doing so include prison time.

    John Iliff, general manager of American Forge & Foundry, says the single shipment of oil-drainage tanks it received in 2006 from the CPMIEC unit set off no alarms. "Trading in illegal goods certainly never crossed our minds," he says.

    The shipment came from China JMM Import & Export Shanghai Pudong Corp., which didn't appear on any sanctions list until Thursday. Records indicate the company shares an address and phone number with a CPMIEC unit that was previously banned: CPMIEC Shanghai Pudong Corp. The Treasury determined that the two companies are affiliated.
    [iran and chinese companies and u.s. sanctions] Bloomberg News

    A Wall Street Journal review of shipping records and interviews with officials at some of the American companies indicate that the U.S. firms likely were unaware they were doing business with banned entities, and in many cases were tripped up by altered company names. Above, a boat passes by a container port in Shanghai, China in June.

    Faced with simple tweaks to company names, even large U.S. corporations with sophisticated procedures for screening vendors can end up doing business with sanctioned firms.

    Greenlee Textron, a unit of Textron Inc., in 2008 and 2009 purchased hand-held pipe benders used by plumbers from Chinese firm Shanghai Kayama Industrial Co. Kayama hired China JMM to facilitate payment and shipping of those goods.

    Textron spokesman Michael Maynard says Greenlee was unaware of China JMM's relationship to CPMIEC before receiving an inquiry from the Journal. He says none of the parties to the 14 shipments appeared on any U.S. lists of sanctioned companies.

    Many companies rely on software that is supposed to alert users if a company is subject to sanctions. But China JMM didn't register a "hit" on the sanctions-screening software used by Kohler Co. of Kohler, Wis., according to a company spokesman. Until July 2009, Kohler purchased lawn-mower parts from a Shanghai firm that used China JMM as its export broker.

    After Kohler was alerted last summer to China JMM's affiliation with CPMIEC, it "immediately halted all orders...until our supplier found a new export broker," the spokesman says.

    U.S. authorities have called CPMIEC a "serial proliferator." The U.S. first sanctioned the firm in 1991 and 1993 for selling short-range-missile technology to Pakistan. After passage of the Iran Nonproliferation Act in 2000, the company was sanctioned in 2002 and 2003 for missile-related sales to Iran.

    The Chinese government, CPMIEC's owner, has objected to U.S. trade sanctions on nonproliferation grounds. "This kind of mistaken practice...damages the atmosphere for Sino-American cooperation on nonproliferation, and is not beneficial to promoting international nonproliferation efforts," says Jiang Yu, a spokeswoman for China's Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

    In 2006, LIMMT Economic & Trade Co., a Chinese seller of metallurgical products, was blocked from selling goods in the U.S. for allegedly selling high-strength metals and sophisticated military materials to Iran.

    In April 2009, a New York grand jury indicted LIMMT and its owner, Li Fang Wei, for allegedly conspiring to evade that ban by using aliases, and the U.S. Treasury updated its sanctions list to include those aliases.

    In 2006, Dalian Sunny Industry & Trade Co. sent seven shipments of steel parts to Coastal Flange Inc. in Houston. (The 2009 case established that Dalian was an LIMMT affiliate.) In 2007, the shipments began coming from Dalian Orient Pipe Components Co. Bills of lading reveal that Dalian Sunny and Dalian Orient share the same address and telephone number.

    Officials at LIMMT, Dalian Sunny and Dalian Orient didn't return calls seeking comment.

    Mark Mekeel, president of Coastal Flange, says U.S. prosecutors contacted him about his trade with Dalian, but told him he had done nothing wrong.

    "Each day I'm pounded on email by offers from Chinese companies," he says. "But I'm not part of some scam. I'm just a guy trying to bring in some product."

    Write to Peter Fritsch at peter.fritsch@wsj.com

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


    Nikita Khrushchev: "We will bury you"
    "Your grandchildren will live under communism."
    “You Americans are so gullible.
    No, you won’t accept
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    outright, but we’ll keep feeding you small doses of
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    until you’ll finally wake up and find you already have communism.

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    ."
    We’ll so weaken your
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    until you’ll
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    like overripe fruit into our hands."



  4. #4
    Creepy Ass Cracka & Site Owner Ryan Ruck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    25,061
    Thanks
    52
    Thanked 78 Times in 76 Posts

    Default Re: China's "Underground Great Wall" and Nuclear Deterrence

    Chinese Nukes
    Kurt Campbell, the assistant secretary of state for East Asia, said in a speech this week that U.S. officials are frustrated by the failure to develop a dialogue with China on nuclear weapons.

    "I will tell you that I think one of the frustrations that the U.S. side has had for several years now, not simply in this administration, is that we have had a desire to have a deeper dialogue between American and Chinese friends exactly about the purposes of their force modernization and the direction that modernization has taken."

    The Obama administration currently is working on a nuclear-posture review to examine the current and future nuclear arsenal, and Mr. Campbell said China "will feature importantly."

    "I think you will see that [Defense] Secretary [Robert M.] Gates and others, [undersecretary of Defense] Michele Flournoy at the Pentagon, will over the course of the next little while make a pitch for a deeper dialogue between our two sides about these issues," Mr. Campbell said.

    "I think we have to recognize that as a growing ... power, China will have military ambitions, but I think it is incumbent upon Chinese friends to be much clearer and much more open not just with the United States, but with surrounding neighbors ... about what their goals and ambitions are."

    China has balked at holding substantive discussions on its nuclear-weapons program, which is currently being built up with at least three new strategic nuclear-missile systems - the mobile DF-31, DF-31A ICBMs, and the submarine-launched JL-2.

    Mr. Campbell also said he believes global climate change could prove to be the most serious national-security threat in the years ahead.

    "I think that the most important national-security challenge that we may face over the course of the next 20 to 30 years may turn out to be climate change," Mr. Campbell said. "I don't think that there is enough of a recognition that climate change is not just a humanitarian issue, it's not simply an issue associated with energy security. It is a national-security issue. It will trigger the very kinds of things that we have to respond to on a regular basis."

    Mr. Campbell spoke Oct. 19 at a conference hosted jointly by the Council on Foreign Relations and the Project 2049 Institute, an Asian affairs research institute.

    He said during the presidential transition earlier this year Navy officials were "extremely excited by some aspect of climate change because large parts of the Arctic will melt and so a whole new class of submarines" would be needed.

    "So after about an hour I said, 'You know, guys, [that's] very interesting stuff, but you do realize that if you're seeing this amount of melt that, you know, all of Florida, much of the United States will be underwater, a huge environmental catastrophe.' "

    Mr. Campbell said a senior admiral told him melting ice caps are possible but "all this flooding, that's all completely uncertain, that hasn't been proved."

    "So my simple statement is I do think that some of the challenges that are completely unrelated to military power, the path and pace of democratization, issues associated with a focus elsewhere on the globe could be completely overwhelmed by the path and pace of global climate change unless it is addressed going forward," he said.

    Still, Mr. Campbell noted that military friction between the United States and China is expected in the years ahead. Both nations need to promote "strategic reassurance," to avoid military confrontation, he said. The new term was first used recently by Deputy Secretary of State James Steinberg.

    Mr. Campbell called for holding a more comprehensive dialogue with China. "Over the course of the next several years, decades, it is inevitable that China's going to become a more active player in a variety of military fields, and as a consequence, they're going to rub up more closely against forward-deployed American assets," he said.

    Efforts to develop "rules of the road" with China have been insufficient, and the rules are needed to help identify "red lines," he said. Military exchanges with China are not enough, and Mr. Campbell said he favors a "more comprehensive security dialogue that involves not just the men and women in uniform, but has a broader context and contour between our two organizations and our two societies."

    Mr. Campbell, a former Pentagon Asia policymaker, said the debate on whether to keep the large U.S. military presence in the Asia Pacific region is over. "One of the things that I note among the strategic community is I think in many respects that debate has passed and I think there are large commitments politically to sustain this enormous capability that's been created and sustained over the years," Mr. Campbell said.

    Earlier, Aaron L. Friedberg, a Princeton University professor and former adviser to former Vice President Dick Cheney, warned that the future of U.S.-Chinese relations are unpredictable and will depend on whether China remains a dictatorship or evolves into a more democratic system.

    "At present, I think it's fair to say that the Sino-American relationship is profoundly mixed," Mr. Friedberg said. "It contains important elements of both competition and cooperation."

    Mr. Friedberg noted that unlike the conventional wisdom, "the competitive aspects of the relationship are in fact deeply rooted."

    "They're not merely the result of misperceptions or misunderstandings or policy errors, although these do contribute on both sides," he said. "They are instead, I believe, the product of two fundamental futures of the contemporary international system."

  5. #5
    Postman vector7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Where it's quiet, peaceful and everyone owns guns
    Posts
    21,663
    Thanks
    30
    Thanked 73 Times in 68 Posts

    Default Re: China's "Underground Great Wall" and Nuclear Deterrence

    US worries over China's underground nuclear network

    (AFP) – 3 days ago



    Underground Great Wall - Chinese Strategic Tunnels from GU Asian Arms on Vimeo.

    WASHINGTON — A leading US lawmaker who fears budget cuts could delay modernizing the US nuclear arsenal voiced concern Friday about an extensive tunnel complex designed to house Chinese nuclear missiles.

    "This network of tunnels could be in excess of 5,000 kilometers (3,110 miles), and is used to transport nuclear weapons and forces," said Michael Turner, who chairs a House Armed Services Committee panel focusing on strategic weapons and other security programs.

    "As we strive to make our nuclear forces more transparent, China is building this underground tunnel system to make its nuclear forces even more opaque," he added, citing an unclassified Department of Defense report.

    Experts also expressed their concern about the network, whose existence was revealed by official Chinese media in late 2009.

    The tunnels would allow China to launch a nuclear counter-attack if it was hit by a nuclear strike. "It's almost mind-boggling," said Mark Schneider, senior analyst at the National Institute for Public Policy.

    "It has enormous implications in terms of their view toward nuclear warfare, survivability of their systems and their leadership in the event of war.

    "It is virtually impossible to target anything like that, irrespective of how many nuclear weapons you have," he added.

    Richard Fisher of the International Assessment and Strategy Center said the tunnel complex could allow the Chinese army to conceal its weapons.

    "Do we really know how many missiles the Chinese have today?" he asked.

    Turner expressed concern that planned cuts to the Pentagon could block efforts to modernize the US arsenal.

    "We need to understand the potential long-term consequences of watching as Russia and China modernize their nuclear arsenal while we sit back and simply maintain our existing and aging nuclear forces," he warned.

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


    Nikita Khrushchev: "We will bury you"
    "Your grandchildren will live under communism."
    “You Americans are so gullible.
    No, you won’t accept
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    outright, but we’ll keep feeding you small doses of
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    until you’ll finally wake up and find you already have communism.

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    ."
    We’ll so weaken your
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    until you’ll
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    like overripe fruit into our hands."



  6. #6
    Repeatedly Redundant...Again
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    4,118
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default Re: China's "Underground Great Wall" and Nuclear Deterrence

    Well that's certainly interesting...and disturbing.

  7. #7
    Creepy Ass Cracka & Site Owner Ryan Ruck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    25,061
    Thanks
    52
    Thanked 78 Times in 76 Posts

    Default Re: China's "Underground Great Wall" and Nuclear Deterrence

    This was just in the Wall Street Journal...

    How Many Nukes Does China Have?
    Plumbing the secret Underground Great Wall

    October 24, 2011

    Shortly after the end of the Cold War, an American defense official named Phillip Karber traveled to Russia as an advance man for a visit by former Secretary of Defense Frank Carlucci. "We were meeting with Russian generals," Mr. Karber recalls, "and we met a three-star who told us they had 40,000 warheads, not the 20,000 we thought they had." It was a stunning disclosure. At a time when legions of CIA analysts, Pentagon war-gamers and arms-control specialists devoted entire careers to estimating the size of the Soviet arsenal, the U.S. had missed the real figure by a factor of two.

    Mr. Karber, who has worked for administrations and senior congressional leaders of both parties and now heads the Asian Arms Control Project at Georgetown University, tells the story as a preface to describing his most recent work. In 2008, he was commissioned by the Pentagon's Defense Threat Reduction Agency—which deals with everything from arms-control verification to nuclear detection and forensics—to look into a mysterious Chinese project known as the "Underground Great Wall." The investigation would lead Mr. Karber to question long-held assumptions about the size—and the purpose—of China's ultra-secret nuclear arsenal.

    The agency's interest in the subject had been piqued following the devastating May 12 earthquake that year in Sichuan province: Along with ordinary rescue teams, Beijing had deployed thousands of radiation specialists belonging to the Second Artillery Corps, the branch of the People's Liberation Army responsible for the country's strategic missile forces, including most of its nuclear weapons.

    The involvement of the Second Artillery wasn't entirely surprising, since Sichuan is home to key nuclear installations, including the Chinese version of Los Alamos. More interesting were reports of hillsides collapsing to expose huge quantities of shattered concrete. Speculation arose that a significant portion of China's nuclear arsenal, held in underground tunnels and depots, may have been lost in the quake.

    Mr. Karber set about trying to learn more with the aid of a team of students using satellite imagery, Chinese-language sources and other materials—all of them publicly available if rarely noticed in the West. History also helped.

    Tunneling has been a part of Chinese military culture for nearly 2,000 years. It was a particular obsession of Mao Zedong, who dug a vast underground city in Beijing and in the late 1960s ordered the building of the so-called Third-Line Defense in central China to withstand a feared Russian nuclear attack. The gargantuan project included an underground nuclear reactor, warhead storage facilities and bunkers for China's first generation of ballistic nuclear missiles.

    China's tunnel-digging mania did not end with Mao's death. If anything, it intensified. In December 2009, as part of the celebrations marking the 60th anniversary of the People's Republic, the PLA announced to great fanfare that the Second Artillery Corps has built a cumulative total of 3,000 miles of tunnels—half of them during the last 15 years.

    "If you started in New Hampshire," notes Mr. Karber by way of reference, "and went to Chicago, then Dallas, then Tijuana, that would be about 3,000 miles."

    Why would the Second Artillery be intent on so much tunneling? There are, after all, other ways of securing a nuclear arsenal. And even with a labor force as vast and as cheap as China's, the cost of these tunnels—well-built, well-lit, paved, high-ceilinged and averaging six miles in length—is immense.

    The extent of the tunneling was also hard to square with the supposedly small size of the Chinese nuclear arsenal, which is commonly believed to be in the range of 240-400 warheads. "So they've built 10 miles of tunnel for every warhead?" Mr. Karber recalls asking himself. "That doesn't make sense; it's kind of overkill."

    That thought prompted Mr. Karber to take a closer look at Western estimates of China's arsenal. In the late 1960s, the U.S. military projected that China would be able to field 435 warheads by 1973. A straight-line extrapolation based on that assumption would suggest that China would have somewhere in the order of 3,000 warheads today. In 1984 the Defense Intelligence Agency estimated that China would have 818 warheads by 1994 and more than 1,000 today. More recent reports in the Chinese media put the figure somewhere between 2,350 and 3,500, with an average annual warhead production of 200 over the last decade. By contrast, estimates by the Natural Resources Defense Council suggest that China's arsenal peaked by about 1980 and has been more-or-less flat ever since.

    How accurate are any of these figures? Without on-site inspections, it's impossible to say for sure: As a report by the Council on Foreign Relations noted a decade ago, "China stands out as the least transparent by far of all the nuclear-weapon states."

    Yet despite the opacity, the consensus view among China watchers is to go with the low estimates. Hans Kristensen of the Federation of American Scientists insists the Chinese are "not in the business of trying to reach [nuclear] parity with the U.S. or Russia. They're not hiding hundreds and hundreds of missiles in these tunnels." The tunnels, he adds, are China's "typical game of hiding what they have and protecting their relatively limited missile force."

    Mr. Karber isn't persuaded. "One kilometer of tunneling is approximately equal to the cost of four or five nuclear weapons and certainly several delivery systems," he notes. Why would China devote such vast resources to building a protective network of tunnels, while devoting comparatively few to the weapons the tunnels are meant to protect?

    Then too, there is the question of whether Beijing's declared nuclear policies are believable. Beijing insists that it has a "no first use" policy. Yet in 2005, PLA Maj. Gen. Zhu Chengdu told The Wall Street Journal that China would launch nuclear attacks on "hundreds of, or two hundreds" of American cities if the U.S. came to Taiwan's aid in the event of a war with the mainland.

    Beijing also claims to adhere to a policy of maintaining a small nuclear force, described by one Chinese general as a "minimum means of reprisal." Here too Mr. Karber has his doubts.

    China is in the midst of a major nuclear modernization effort that includes building a new generation of intercontinental ballistic missiles reportedly capable of delivering multiple warheads. It fields an estimated force of nearly 1,300 tactical and theater missile systems that can be tipped with either a nuclear or a conventional warhead—the ambiguity itself giving China immense strategic leverage in the event of war.

    Mr. Karber also suspects China may have up to five missiles for every one of its mobile launcher vehicles. If so, those "reloads" would go far to explain the discrepancy between China's observed number of mobile launchers—one of the reasons for thinking China has a relatively small number of missiles—and Mr. Karber's suspicions about the true size of its arsenal.

    What purpose would a large and presumably invulnerable Chinese arsenal serve? For decades, nuclear experts have understood that the key to "winning" a nuclear exchange is to have an effective second-strike capability, which in turn requires both a sizable and survivable force. The Second Artillery itself suggested some ideas when it announced the completion of the Underground Great Wall in 2009, claiming it gave China the ability to "withstand nuclear strikes"; that "Taiwan independence can despair"; and that China no longer had cause to be "afraid of a decisive battle with the United States."

    Mr. Kristensen writes this off as standard regime propaganda, noting that "the Chinese are known for putting out incorrect information as a form of information warfare." Yet it's unclear why the U.S. arms-control community seems happy to accept Beijing's claims about its nuclear doctrine at face value while dismissing the giant network of tunnels as the equivalent of a Chinese Potemkin village.

    Mr. Karber has some thoughts on that score. The low estimate of China's arsenal, he believes, originally derived from an estimate of delivery vehicles—meaning missiles, mobile launchers, airplanes and submarines—that could be observed. After that, he suspects, "lack of new evidence and inertia seem to have kept the numbers flat."

    He also fears an institutional bias in favor of the low numbers. Within the U.S. government, "the Pentagon and the intelligence community have been criticized over the years for 'worst case projections,' so now everyone avoids them like the plague."

    Outside of government, "arms-control experts have tried hard to downplay the PLA strategic effort in order to head off 'unnecessary' U.S. reaction." China, after all, is supposed to be the role model for the kind of arsenal a "responsible" nuclear power should have, and a China with an arsenal much larger than commonly believed would be the ultimate inconvenient truth for those pushing for steeper nuclear cuts.

    Mr. Karber is a careful, deliberate man, who favors negotiated arms-control with China. In speaking to me, he repeatedly insists that his research is far from definitive and cannot substitute for a real intelligence-gathering effort. He also admits that it's possible—if only just—that the Chinese have led with the tunnels in order to stock them later with weapons, launchers and missiles.

    Yet for all of the uncertainties, there is little doubt about the tunnels themselves, which the Pentagon acknowledged for the first time this year in its annual report on the Chinese military. And nobody who cares about the nuclear balance can look away from the mountain of evidence Mr. Karber has compiled, much less fail to consider what it might imply. That goes especially for the Obama administration, which has moved forward with an ambitious agenda of deep nuclear cuts with Russia as if China's arsenal barely existed.

    That assumption needs urgent reconsideration. The alternative is for China, steeped in a 2,500 year military tradition of concealment, deception and surprise, to announce—at a time and in a manner of its choosing—its supremacy in a field that we have foolishly abandoned to our dreams.

  8. #8
    Expatriate American Patriot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    A Banana Republic, Central America
    Posts
    48,612
    Thanks
    82
    Thanked 28 Times in 28 Posts

    Default Re: China's "Underground Great Wall" and Nuclear Deterrence

    China is a dangerous opponent, regardless of what so many seem to think about them.
    Libertatem Prius!


    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




  9. #9
    Postman vector7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Where it's quiet, peaceful and everyone owns guns
    Posts
    21,663
    Thanks
    30
    Thanked 73 Times in 68 Posts

    Default Re: China's "Underground Great Wall" and Nuclear Deterrence

    Companion Threads:



    China Seen Deploying New Nuke-Ready Ballistic Missiles

    Friday, Nov. 4, 2011

    China appears to be fielding four new nuclear-ready ballistic missiles and designating an increasing share of its bombs for use on missiles able to travel greater distances, the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists reported in its latest edition (see GSN, Aug. 26).


    (Nov. 4) - Chinese missile launchers, shown on display during a 2009 military parade in Beijing. An expert assessment suggests China is deploying four new nuclear-ready ballistic missiles and devoting an increasing share of its warheads for deployment on long-range missiles (AP Photo/Vincent Thian).

    Authors Hans Kristensen and Robert Norris estimated that China now possesses 240 nuclear weapons as well as some 140 ballistic missiles fielded on land, 72 missiles with ranges that can hit U.S. targets and 40 missiles capable of striking the U.S. mainland.

    However, Beijing has run into problems in developing a sea-based platform for its nuclear warheads, according to the authors. "Efforts to deploy JL-2 submarine-launched ballistic missiles on [the] new Jin-class SSBNs [ballistic-missile submarines] have suffered setbacks. Because of this, China does not have any operational [submarine-launched ballistic missiles]."

    "China's main concern is the survivability of its minimum nuclear deterrent, and it spends considerable resources on dispersing and hiding its land-based missiles," Norris and Kristensen wrote. "This makes its SSBN program even more puzzling, for it is much riskier to deploy nuclear weapons at sea, where the SSBNs could be sunk by unfriendly forces."

    "The U.S. government has complained for years that China is too opaque regarding its military forces and budgets and that it needs to be more open," the authors noted (see GSN, Oct. 28; Kristensen/Norris, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, November/December 2011).

    Even as it adds to its stockpile of weapons capable of striking the United States, the People's Liberation Army is also aiming missiles at Russia and India, the Times of India reported. The DF-31 is capable of traveling nearly 4,500 miles.

    Sources within India's government are concerned that much of the buildup of Chinese nuclear forces is taking place in the Delingha region, which is only about 1,240 miles away from New Delhi.

    Indian government personnel fear their country is under particular consideration for targeting by China, unlike other nearby nations such as Nepal, Myanmar and Pakistan.

    Kristensen cautioned, though, that China's nuclear posture is focused on countering a number of possible antagonists.

    "One factor that can contribute to making the situation better or worse between China and India is of course India's own military modernization along the India-China border as well as India's development of longer-range nuclear missiles that are more directly aimed at China," Kristensen told the Times.

    The Bulletin report notes that "deployment of the DF-31, first introduced in 2006, continues at a slow rate; China is using the DF-31 ICBM to replace its older DF-4 missiles. We estimate that China deploys 10-20 DF-31s, with the same number of launchers" (Sachin Parashar, Times of India, Nov. 4).

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


    Nikita Khrushchev: "We will bury you"
    "Your grandchildren will live under communism."
    “You Americans are so gullible.
    No, you won’t accept
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    outright, but we’ll keep feeding you small doses of
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    until you’ll finally wake up and find you already have communism.

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    ."
    We’ll so weaken your
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    until you’ll
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    like overripe fruit into our hands."



  10. #10
    Creepy Ass Cracka & Site Owner Ryan Ruck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    25,061
    Thanks
    52
    Thanked 78 Times in 76 Posts

    Default Re: China's "Underground Great Wall" and Nuclear Deterrence

    So... Herman Cain was right?

  11. #11
    Creepy Ass Cracka & Site Owner Ryan Ruck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    25,061
    Thanks
    52
    Thanked 78 Times in 76 Posts

    Default Re: China's "Underground Great Wall" and Nuclear Deterrence

    Georgetown Students Shed Light On China’s Tunnel System For Nuclear Weapons
    November 29, 2011

    The Chinese have called it their “Underground Great Wall” — a vast network of tunnels designed to hide their country’s increasingly sophisticated missile and nuclear arsenal.

    For the past three years, a small band of obsessively dedicated students at Georgetown University has called it something else: homework.

    Led by their hard-charging professor, a former top Pentagon official, they have translated hundreds of documents, combed through satellite imagery, obtained restricted Chinese military documents and waded through hundreds of gigabytes of online data.

    The result of their effort? The largest body of public knowledge about thousands of miles of tunnels dug by the Second Artillery Corps, a secretive branch of the Chinese military in charge of protecting and deploying its ballistic missiles and nuclear warheads.

    The study is yet to be released, but already it has sparked a congressional hearing and been circulated among top officials in the Pentagon, including the Air Force vice chief of staff.

    Most of the attention has focused on the 363-page study’s provocative conclusion — that China’s nuclear arsenal could be many times larger than the well-established estimates of arms-control experts.

    “It’s not quite a bombshell, but those thoughts and estimates are being checked against what people think they know based on classified information,” said a Defense Department strategist who would discuss the study only on the condition of anonymity.

    The study’s critics, however, have questioned the unorthodox Internet-based research of the students, who drew from sources as disparate as Google Earth, blogs, military journals and, perhaps most startlingly, a fictionalized TV docudrama about Chinese artillery soldiers — the rough equivalent of watching Fox’s TV show “24” for insights into U.S. counterterrorism efforts.

    But the strongest condemnation has come from nonproliferation experts who worry that the study could fuel arguments for maintaining nuclear weapons in an era when efforts are being made to reduce the world’s post-Cold War stockpiles.

    Beyond its impact in the policy world, the project has made a profound mark on the students — including some who have since graduated and taken research jobs with the Defense Department and Congress.

    “I don’t even want to know how many hours I spent on it,” said Nick Yarosh, 22, an international politics senior at Georgetown. “But you ask people what they did in college, most just say I took this class, I was in this club. I can say I spent it reading Chinese nuclear strategy and Second Artillery manuals. For a nerd like me, that really means something.”

    For students, an obsession

    The students’ professor, Phillip A. Karber, 65, had spent the Cold War as a top strategist reporting directly to the secretary of defense and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. But it was his early work in defense that cemented his reputation, when he led an elite research team created by Henry Kissinger, who was then the national security adviser, to probe the weaknesses of Soviet forces.

    Karber prided himself on recruiting the best intelligence analysts in the government. “You didn’t just want the highest-ranking or brightest guys, you wanted the ones who were hungry,” he said.

    In 2008, Karber was volunteering on a committee for the Defense Threat Reduction Agency, a Pentagon agency charged with countering weapons of mass destruction.

    After a devastating earthquake struck Sichuan province, the chairman of Karber’s committee noticed Chinese news accounts reporting that thousands of radiation technicians were rushing to the region. Then came pictures of strangely collapsed hills and speculation that the caved-in tunnels in the area had held nuclear weapons.

    Find out what’s going on, the chairman asked Karber, who began looking for analysts again — this time among his students at Georgetown.

    The first inductees came from his arms-control classes. Each semester, he set aside a day to show them tantalizing videos and documents he had begun gathering on the tunnels. Then he concluded with a simple question: What do you think it means?

    “The fact that there were no answers to that really got to me,” said former student Dustin Walker, 22. “It started out like any other class, tests on this day or that, but people kept coming back, even after graduation. . . . We spent hours on our own outside of class on this stuff.”

    The students worked in their dorms translating military texts. They skipped movie nights for marathon sessions reviewing TV clips of missiles being moved from one tunnel structure to another. While their friends read Shakespeare, they gathered in the library to war-game worst-case scenarios of a Chinese nuclear strike on the United States.

    Over time, the team grew from a handful of contributors to roughly two dozen. Most spent their time studying the subterranean activities of the Second Artillery Corps.

    While the tunnels’ existence was something of an open secret among the handful of experts studying China’s nuclear arms, almost no papers or public reports on the structures existed.

    So the students turned to publicly available Chinese sources — military journals, local news reports and online photos posted by Chinese citizens. It helped that China’s famously secretive military was beginning to release more information, driven by its leaders’ eagerness to show off China’s growing power to its citizens.

    The Internet also generated a raft of leads: new military forums, blogs and once-obscure local TV reports now posted on the Chinese equivalents of YouTube. Strategic string searches even allowed the students to get behind some military Web sites and download documents such as syllabuses taught at China’s military academies.

    Drudgery and discoveries

    The main problem was the sheer amount of translation required.

    Each semester, Karber managed to recruit only one or two Chinese-speaking students. So the team assembled a makeshift system to scan images of the books and documents they found. Using text-capture software, they converted those pictures into Chinese characters, which were fed into translation software to produce crude English versions. From those, they highlighted key passages for finer translation by the Chinese speakers.

    The downside was the drudgery — hours feeding pages into the scanner. The upside was that after three years, the students had compiled a searchable database of more than 1.4 million words on the Second Artillery and its tunnels.

    By combining everything they found in the journals, video clips, satellite imagery and photos, they were able to triangulate the location of several tunnel structures, with a rough idea of what types of missiles were stored in each.

    Their work also yielded smaller revelations: how the missiles were kept mobile and transported from structure to structure, as well as tantalizing images and accounts of a “missile train” and disguised passenger rail cars to move China’s long-range missiles.

    To facilitate the work, Karber set up research rooms for the students at his home in Great Falls. He bought Apple computers and large flat-screen monitors for their video work and obtained small research grants for those who wanted to work through the summer. When work ran late, many crashed in his basement’s spare room.

    “I got fat working on this thing because I didn’t go to the gym anymore. It was that intense,” said Yarosh, who has continued on the project this year not for credit but purely as a hobby. “It’s not the typical college course. Dr. Karber just tells you the objective and gives you total freedom to figure out how to get there. That level of trust can be liberating.”

    Some of the biggest breakthroughs came after members of Karber’s team used personal connections in China to obtain a 400-page manual produced by the Second Artillery and usually available only to China’s military personnel.

    Another source of insight was a pair of semi-fictionalized TV series chronicling the lives of Second Artillery soldiers.

    The plots were often overwrought with melodrama — one series centers on a brigade commander who struggles to whip his slipshod unit into shape while juggling relationship problems with his glamorous Olympic-swim-coach girlfriend. But they also included surprisingly accurate depictions of artillery units’ procedures that lined up perfectly with the military manual and other documents.

    “Until someone showed us on screen how exactly these missile deployments were done from the tunnels, we only had disparate pieces. The TV shows gave us the big picture of how it all worked together,” Karber said.

    A bigger Chinese arsenal?

    In December 2009, just as the students began making progress, the Chinese military admitted for the first time that the Second Artillery had indeed been building a network of tunnels. According to a report by state-run CCTV, China had more than 3,000 miles of tunnels — roughly the distance between Boston and San Francisco — including deep underground bases that could withstand multiple nuclear attacks.

    The news shocked Karber and his team. It confirmed the direction of their research, but it also highlighted how little attention the tunnels were garnering outside East Asia.

    The lack of interest, particularly in the U.S. media, demonstrated China’s unique position in the world of nuclear arms.

    For decades, the focus has been on the two powers with the largest nuclear stockpiles by far — the United States, with 5,000 warheads available for deployment, and Russia, which has 8,000.

    But of the five nuclear weapons states recognized by the Non-Proliferation Treaty, China has been the most secretive. While the United States and Russia are bound by bilateral treaties that require on-site inspections, disclosure of forces and bans on certain missiles, China is not.

    The assumption for years has been that the Chinese arsenal is relatively small — anywhere from 80 to 400 warheads.

    China has encouraged that perception. As the only one of the five original nuclear states with a no-first-use policy, it insists that it keeps a small stockpile only for “minimum deterrence.”

    Given China’s lack of transparency, Karber argues, all the experts have to work with are assumptions, which can often be dead wrong. As an example, Karber often recounts to his students his experience of going to Russia with former defense secretary Frank C. Carlucci to discuss U.S. help in securing the Russian nuclear arsenal.

    The United States had offered Russia about 20,000 canisters designed to safeguard warheads — a number based on U.S. estimates at the time.

    The generals told Karber they needed 40,000.

    Skepticism among analysts

    At the end of the tunnel study, Karber cautions that the same could happen with China. Based on the number of tunnels the Second Artillery is digging and its increasing deployment of missiles, he argues, China’s nuclear warheads could number as many as 3,000.

    It is an assertion that has provoked heated responses from the arms-control community.

    Gregory Kulacki, a China nuclear analyst at the Union of Concerned Scientists, publicly condemned Karber’s report at a recent lecture in Washington. In an interview afterward, he called the 3,000 figure “ridiculous” and said the study’s methodology — especially its inclusion of posts from Chinese bloggers — was “incompetent and lazy.”

    “The fact that they’re building tunnels could actually reinforce the exact opposite point,” he argued. “With more tunnels and a better chance of survivability, they may think they don’t need as many warheads to strike back.”

    Reaction from others has been more moderate.

    “Their research has value, but it also shows the danger of the Internet,” said Hans M. Kristensen of the Federation of American Scientists. Kristensen faulted some of the students’ interpretation of the satellite images.

    “One thing his report accomplishes, I think, is it highlights the uncertainty about what China has,” said Mark Stokes, executive director of the Project 2049 Institute, a think tank. “There’s no question China’s been investing in tunnels, and to look at those efforts and pose this question is worthwhile.”

    This year, the Defense Department’s annual report on China’s military highlighted for the first time the Second Artillery’s work on new tunnels, partly a result of Karber’s report, according to some Pentagon officials. And in the spring, shortly before a visit to China, some in the office of then-Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates were briefed on the study.

    “I think it’s fair to say senior officials here have keyed upon the importance of this work,” said one Pentagon officer who was not authorized to speak on the record.

    For Karber, provoking such debate means that he and his small army of undergrads have succeeded.

    “I don’t have the slightest idea how many nuclear weapons China really has, but neither does anyone else in the arms-control community,” he said. “That’s the problem with China — no one really knows except them.”

  12. #12
    Postman vector7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Where it's quiet, peaceful and everyone owns guns
    Posts
    21,663
    Thanks
    30
    Thanked 73 Times in 68 Posts

    Default Re: China's "Underground Great Wall" and Nuclear Deterrence

    Tunnels Swallow Conventional Wisdom on China’s Nuclear Strategy

    By Matthew Robertson On December 13, 2011 @ 11:21 pm In International | No Comments
    Nuclear-capable missiles are displayed at a massive parade to celebrate the 60th anniversary of the founding of the Chinese communist regime, on Oct. 1, 2009, in Beijing, China. (Feng Li/Getty Images)

    WASHINGTON—A hole in the ground means different things to different people. But what about a complex network of caverns more than 3,000 miles in length, deep underground, wide enough for two or three train cars, and used to keep nuclear weapons?

    Prompted by a recent report by a Georgetown University professor, a debate has emerged among academics and arms control policy wonks about what that means, if anything.

    At stake, potentially, is the global arms control regime, U.S. strategic planning on China, and stability in Asia.

    Phillip Karber, Ph.D., from Georgetown led a group of 20 students in the Asian Arms Control Project who watched hundreds of hours of Chinese military footage, analyzed millions of words of text, and produced a report distilling their key findings.

    They document in the forthcoming report (it is being held up for a security review) how the Second Artillery Corps constructs and maintains its tunnel complexes, often in mountainous regions, and how it uses them to conduct nuclear weapons exercises.

    The Second Artillery is a crack military squad tasked with keeping custody over the Chinese nuclear arsenal; they answer directly to the Central Military Commission, the Party arm that oversees China’s armed forces.

    The report generated immediate controversy, mostly because of the numbers that Karber had presented as possible Chinese nuclear holdings: 3,000, at one stage. These suggestions were immediately and efficiently dismantled by researchers in the arms control community, including Jeffrey Lewis, Hans Kristensen, and Gregory Kulacki, who went to Hong Kong and dug out one of the original sources that Karber had cited citations of.

    Karber later said that the 3,000 figure was on a timeline to 2020.

    Nuclear Strategy Questioned

    The dust having settled on that portion of the debate, however, the question remains as to what the meaning of all those tunnels is. And on that point, different analysts say different things.

    “It’s a very difficult debate because it’s not about facts, it’s about circumstantial evidence,” said Hans Kristensen, director of the Nuclear Information Project at the Federation of American Scientists. “It’s hard to hold on to any particular part of the debate.”

    Some analysts highlight precisely the question of the unknown. “If anything, what Karber has done is cause us to question any definitive conclusion about China’s nuclear weapons sector,” said Richard Fisher, senior fellow in Asian military affairs at the International Assessment and Strategy Center, in a telephone interview.

    Others say that there’s nothing new here, and that Karber’s findings simply reinforce the prevailing understanding of China’s nuclear strategy: That is, to field a small number of nuclear weapons, protect them well, and make sure they are available only for a retaliatory strike.

    But is so much tunneling needed for just that?

    Gregory Kulacki, China project manager at the Union of Concerned Scientists, is convinced that the strategy being adopted is similar to that proposed and later scrapped by the United States in the Cold War for the MX missile.

    “I think the tunnels suggest that the primary Chinese concern is about the survivability of the weapons they have. That to me is one of the things that can possibly be explained by these tunnels,” he said in a telephone interview.
    Jeffrey Lewis, director of the East Asia Nonproliferation Program at the Monterey Institute, largely shares that interpretation, he indicated in an interview; he wrote a book called “Minimum Means of Reprisal: China’s Search for Security in the Nuclear Age.”

    Karber dissents. “It doesn’t make sense to go to the expense of producing 10 times as much tunnel” as necessary, he said on a phone interview. “That is mind boggling.”

    The MX theory also doesn’t take into account the vast sizes of the complexes, Karber said. “These things that are 60 feet wide and 50 feet high, you could use two or three trains in that space.”

    Arsenal Size

    But tunnel space does not equal arsenal size.

    Not knowing the precise number of nuclear warheads does not mean that “the sky is the limit,” as Kristensen put it. “We can’t just assume the worst.”

    Karber’s assumptions are not rosy. He points to Chinese primary sources, which indicate that the tunnels are primarily used for nuclear weapons, notwithstanding the other possible uses.

    But how many nuclear weapons?

    Certainly not 3,000, and definitely not 2,350—both ideas that Karber has thrown out there at different stages of presenting his ideas. The problem was that those figures came from dubious sources.

    The International Panel on Fissile Materials said, “China maintains great secrecy about its military stockpiles of fissile materials.”

    There are agreed-upon figures for how much highly-enriched uranium and plutonium that the Chinese military could have produced, which allows a potential range of between 360 and 1,300 warheads, according to a study by Hui Zhang for the Belfer Center at Harvard University. However, the consensus view is that China has about 240 nuclear warheads.

    Karber highlights that it could be the largest figure. He will be content if he can simply mount a credible challenge to the current assumptions, rather than erect a new set.

    “What the tunnels do is undermine the credibility of current American estimate about the size of China’s nuclear missile arsenal,” says Fisher, the military analyst. “Of course they don’t give any indication of how large the arsenal actually is today. But at a minimum it causes us to question whether current public U.S. estimates are valid.”

    Jeffrey Lewis says that people calling into question claims about weapon numbers need to present counterevidence. No evidence has been made public that there are more than the known components—that is fissile material—needed to actually build the weapons.
    Next … Troubling and Complicating
    ‘Troubling and Complicating’

    But with 3,000 miles of underground caverns, could China hide a reactor?

    In April 2010 the regime opened to the public the 816 Nuclear Military Plant, turning a once secret military site into a tourist attraction. It had been built in the 1960s and held an incomplete nuclear reactor 80 meters (262.47 feet) tall. The outside world knew nothing of it until the military went public and made it a tourist site, Karber says. What stops them from doing it again?

    It’s possible but unlikely, say analysts, because of the potential external signatures that would give it away.

    Military analysts emphasize the ominous potential of the tunnel network; whereas arms control researchers highlight what is currently known. And that is where the debate founders: a 3,000-mile question mark and a series of jousting contentions.

    Karber worries. “I see these very, very large tunnels, and they only make sense for road-mobile ICBMs,” he said, using the acronym for intercontinental ballistic missile.

    “This is not just a few missiles being put in, or merely business as usual, it is dramatically different,” he said of the tunnels. “They’re bigger, they’re designed for complex loading, they have real-time command and control, they have very advanced humidity [controls], and they’re just much larger,” he said.

    Beijing’s infamous opacity clouds the debate. No observer knows for sure how many nuclear weapons the regime may have, and the existence of the tunnels makes it effectively impossible to know for sure.

    That lack of certainty brings diplomatic and political ramifications, according to Christopher Ford, director of the Center for Technology and Global Security at the Hudson Institute.

    The whole Karber debate simply “reemphasizes the issue of how little we know about the Chinese nuclear strategy.” Making projections based on American expectations as to what is reasonable may not be wise, he indicated in a telephone interview.

    Since the Cold War the United States and Russia have been reducing their nuclear stockpiles. The idea that China is ramping up its nuclear efforts—one interpretation of the tunneling—could complicate that process, he said.

    Related Articles


    “There are any number of issues that are enormously complicated by these sorts of question marks,” Ford said. “It’s troubling and complicating in ways that one might wish one did not have to confront.”

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


    Nikita Khrushchev: "We will bury you"
    "Your grandchildren will live under communism."
    “You Americans are so gullible.
    No, you won’t accept
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    outright, but we’ll keep feeding you small doses of
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    until you’ll finally wake up and find you already have communism.

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    ."
    We’ll so weaken your
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    until you’ll
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    like overripe fruit into our hands."



  13. #13
    Postman vector7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Where it's quiet, peaceful and everyone owns guns
    Posts
    21,663
    Thanks
    30
    Thanked 73 Times in 68 Posts

    Default Re: China's "Underground Great Wall" and Nuclear Deterrence

    The mystery behind China’s Hebei Mountains

    Guest Column by Debalina Chatterjee





    To be able to retaliate to an enemy’s first strike is not just about having adequate arsenal to do so, it is also about being able to survive the enemy’s attack and then being able to retaliate.

    In 1989, Major General Yang Huan had raised concerns over enhancing China’s survivability of strategic nuclear weapons. Over the past few years there have been concerns raised on China’s “underground Great Wall”. It has been suspected that China’s Second Artillery Corps has been digging mountainous regions in the province of Hebei in the Western parts of Shaanxi province to hide their missile arsenals.

    The Pentagon reports state that China had over the years used under ground facilities to hide their missile arsenals. China has also been changing from liquid propelled missiles which were silo based to solid propelled missiles like the DF-31 and DF-31A and hence, more apt to become road mobile. However, road and rail mobile missiles could still be vulnerable to US pre emptive attack and hence, an underground tunnel adds to China’s survivability strength. This decision was taken as Beijing realised the chances of the missiles that were deployed above the ground and hence could be detected by spy satellites or be destroyed by enemy missiles and bombers. This would enable China to enhance its counter strike capability given its no first use. Ballistic missiles like the D-5 are reported to be in un fuelled state which means that it could take a long time, probably a few hours for them to get prepared for launch. The tunnel could provide a protective shelter under which the missile could be prepared for launch. Several Chinese soldiers from the Second Artillery Corps have been involved in construction of the network of tunnels.

    The network of tunnels as called by the Chinese as “hard and deeply buried targets” is expected to increase China’s chances of survivability of the arsenals thereby increasing their chances of an assured second strike, thereby ensuring assured destruction. It must be taken into consideration that once a country has assured its survivability, the number of arsenal that the country possesses becomes immaterial because the country can cause assured destruction even if it has less arsenal than its enemy. Hence, it could be concluded that once a weaker state has all the means to make its arsenal survivable, the state could achieve parity of power with the stronger state even with fewer arsenal. China’s nuclear parity with the United States could be called as in Gorbachev’s words “casuistry”.

    However, it has been assumed that the tunnel would also be used for launching strikes from underground. One of the best medium of survivability of arsenal is by placing the arsenal in submarines. China has still a long way to go in developing a blue water capability with credible SSBNs and SSNs. Hence, the tunnel would be the best option for China to enable its forces to survive. It would also enable China to transport the arsenal from one place to another and also to launch a strike from anywhere under the tunnel.

    Michael Turner who chairs the House Arm Services Committee had estimated the network of tunnels could be in excess of 5000kms. The Americans are particularly perturbed about the fact that at a time when Washington is trying to make its nuclear strategy transparent, China remains ambiguous with its nuclear weapons and delivery systems by digging under ground tunnels to accommodate them. Decoupling of warheads from the missiles would lead to serious difficulties in quantifying China’s nuclear arsenal. This could further jeopardise the strategic balance in the region of Asia and affect America’s calculation of risk and cost of intervention in case of a crisis over the Taiwan issue. Under such cases even with more number of nuclear weapons compared to China, it could be difficult to target the arsenals hidden inside the tunnel.

    It was reported that the China Defence Daily had provided a rare glimpse of the tunnel. The Xingua News Agency in China had reported on the tunnel being constructed underground. It has been reported that the tunnel’s outermost layer is 1000metres deep and covered with soil and “does not include any artificial reinforcements”. 1000metres deep implies that such tunnels would be beyond the range of enemy ships or submarine based missile attacks. Tunnel launch facilities would not be affected by any kind of weather disturbances.

    The Americans could be more concerned as with such kind of developments taking place in the region, America’s first strike option gets negated. Further reason of concern is the fact that the activities can be conducted inside the tunnel without being detected from space. Nuclear deterrence is dependant more on survivability than on the number of arsenals. In case of a conflict over the Taiwan issue between the United States and China, even a conventional attack on China could result in a Chinese nuclear retaliation. This is because China has stated that the nuclear retaliation would not be against enemy territory. However, China considers Taiwan to be a part of its own territory under the ‘one China policy’.

    The ambiguity in nuclear arsenal of China could lead the United States in increasing its own arsenal or probably in enhancing its ballistic missile defence capabilities which could lead Russia to follow the same path of further arming itself. It could also lead China to change its nuclear doctrine to ‘first use’ given that the survivability of the arsenal would be enhanced inside the tunnel. It could also enable the Chinese to not to completely depend on the BMD that they are working on. In case the Chinese BMD is unable to intercept incoming ballistic missiles or the Chinese are not able to intercept cruise missiles, there would still be a chance for the survivability of the arsenal. Such survivability could also rule out the chances of conventional warfare and nuclear weapons which are generally the weapons of the last resort could be used by the United States as the weapons of first choice in case of a warfare to be able to destroy these tunnels. It could be expected that the United States could use MIRV-ed nuclear warhead missiles to destroy the tunnel.

    However, there could be positive outcomes of this too. China and the United States could enter into an arms talk. Mutual deterrence between the two would be easier to maintain as the United States could be apprehensive of assured Chinese retaliation after an assured survivability. Even though the United States could boast of the Ballistic Missile Defence, the Chinese counter measures on their ballistic missiles could negate such defences quite easily. While bunker busting techniques could work for the nuclear warhead missiles to penetrate into these protected bases, it could take several warheads to do the job of both penetration and destruction of the tunnel. For China, this tunnel system would mean that in case its ballistic missile defence which it is developing fails to intercept the ballistic missiles from enemy countries used to destroy its arsenals, China’s survivability would still be enhanced. It also would make China’s arsenals less exposed to cruise missile threats. Even if these tunnel systems would not be able to hide counter value targets from being hit, the fact that there would be an assured retaliation from the Chinese could deter the United States from attacking Chinese counter value targets. Both United States and China should indulge into more arms control talks to maintain peace and stability in the Asia Pacific Region.

    (Debalina Chatterjee is a Research Associate of the Centre for Air Power Studies, Western Air Command)

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


    Nikita Khrushchev: "We will bury you"
    "Your grandchildren will live under communism."
    “You Americans are so gullible.
    No, you won’t accept
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    outright, but we’ll keep feeding you small doses of
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    until you’ll finally wake up and find you already have communism.

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    ."
    We’ll so weaken your
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    until you’ll
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    like overripe fruit into our hands."



  14. #14
    Postman vector7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Where it's quiet, peaceful and everyone owns guns
    Posts
    21,663
    Thanks
    30
    Thanked 73 Times in 68 Posts

    Default Re: China's "Underground Great Wall" and Nuclear Deterrence

    China nukes no 'direct threat,' says US commander

    by Staff Writers
    Washington (AFP) May 30, 2012


    General Robert Kehler, head of Strategic Command

    China's nuclear weapons do not pose a "direct threat" to the United States, the man in charge of America's arsenal said Wednesday in calling for greater dialogue with the Chinese.

    "We would like to have routine contact and conversations with China's military," General Robert Kehler, head of Strategic Command, which oversees US nuclear deterrence, told the Council on Foreign Relations in Washington.

    "We think there would be tremendous benefit to that in both China and the United States, in particular to help us avoid some misunderstanding or some tension in the future."

    The STRATCOM commander said that although the United States and Russia account for roughly 90 percent of the world's nuclear weapons, dealing with the Chinese on the matter would become increasingly important.

    "I do not see the Chinese strategic deterrent as a direct threat to the United States. We are not enemies," he said.

    "Could it be (a threat)? I suppose if we were enemies it could be and therefore we at least have to be aware of that."

    Kehler admitted concerns over the 2013 budget as the Pentagon tightens its belt following the global economic downturn, saying he was most worried about investment in the actual nuclear weapons, not their delivery systems.

    "There is investment money there for long-range strike aircraft, there's investment there for a follow on to the Ohio class ballistic missile submarine," he said.

    "I am most concerned that we make sure that we have the appropriate investment in place for the weapons complexes."

    Fiscal pressure has forced US military chiefs to scale back projected spending by $487 billion over the next decade, a task they have described as tough but manageable.

    But a threat of even more dramatic defense cuts also looms on the political horizon.

    If Congress fails to agree by January 2013 on how to slash the ballooning deficit, dramatic defense reductions of about $500 billion would be automatically triggered under a law adopted last year.

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


    Nikita Khrushchev: "We will bury you"
    "Your grandchildren will live under communism."
    “You Americans are so gullible.
    No, you won’t accept
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    outright, but we’ll keep feeding you small doses of
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    until you’ll finally wake up and find you already have communism.

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    ."
    We’ll so weaken your
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    until you’ll
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    like overripe fruit into our hands."



  15. #15
    Expatriate American Patriot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    A Banana Republic, Central America
    Posts
    48,612
    Thanks
    82
    Thanked 28 Times in 28 Posts

    Default Re: China's "Underground Great Wall" and Nuclear Deterrence

    when are these dumbasses gonna get that China IS our enemy????????????????

    God....
    Libertatem Prius!


    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




  16. #16
    Creepy Ass Cracka & Site Owner Ryan Ruck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    25,061
    Thanks
    52
    Thanked 78 Times in 76 Posts

    Default Re: China's "Underground Great Wall" and Nuclear Deterrence

    Just found this video that was done by Georgetown to go with the report. I would recommend watching it with the volume off unless you are partial to nationalistic Chinese music.


  17. #17
    Postman vector7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Where it's quiet, peaceful and everyone owns guns
    Posts
    21,663
    Thanks
    30
    Thanked 73 Times in 68 Posts

    Default Re: China's "Underground Great Wall" and Nuclear Deterrence

    Nice, we need to get used to their nationalist music and be prepared to learn Chinese so we can better acclimate inside their labor camps.

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


    Nikita Khrushchev: "We will bury you"
    "Your grandchildren will live under communism."
    “You Americans are so gullible.
    No, you won’t accept
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    outright, but we’ll keep feeding you small doses of
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    until you’ll finally wake up and find you already have communism.

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    ."
    We’ll so weaken your
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    until you’ll
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    like overripe fruit into our hands."



  18. #18
    Creepy Ass Cracka & Site Owner Ryan Ruck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    25,061
    Thanks
    52
    Thanked 78 Times in 76 Posts

    Default Re: China's "Underground Great Wall" and Nuclear Deterrence


    New U.S. Law Seeks Answers On Chinese Nuke Tunnels

    Jan 5, 2013

    The U.S. military must consider both conventional and nuclear capabilities to “neutralize” China’s underground nuclear weapons storage facilities, according to a Pentagon authorization signed into law.

    The new National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), signed by U.S. President Barack Obama on Jan. 2, orders the Commander of the U.S. Strategic Command (STRATCOM) to submit a report by Aug. 15 on the “underground tunnel network used by the People’s Republic of China with respect to the capability of the United States to use conventional and nuclear forces to neutralize such tunnels and what is stored within such tunnels.”

    A Georgetown University team led by Phillip Karber conducted a three-year study to map out China’s complex tunnel system, which stretches 3,000 miles.

    The 2011 report, “Strategic Implications of China’s Underground Great Wall,” concluded that the number of nuclear weapons estimated by U.S. intelligence was incorrect. His team estimated that as many as 3,000 nuclear weapons could be hidden within a vast labyrinth in several locations in China. U.S. intelligence estimates have been reporting consistently that China had, at the most, 300 nuclear warheads in its arsenal.

    Karber’s report presents evidence of a complex system of tunnels in areas noted for nuclear testing and storage — a far greater subterranean cavity than needed for just 300 nuclear weapons.

    NDAA sections 1045, 1271 and 3119 all highlight U.S. congressional concerns over China’s nuclear and military modernization efforts. Bonnie Glaser, a China specialist at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, doubts these sections of the NDAA will have major policy consequences for U.S.-China relations: “The intelligence community tracks China’s nuclear weapons closely — is a federally funded research and development center going to find a new threat?”

    Overall, Glaser believes the new reporting requirements are a reaction to Karber’s work, making him one of a few lonely challengers to suggest that U.S. intelligence estimates are wrong.

    The NDAA-directed report by STRATCOM must include identification of the knowledge gaps regarding such nuclear weapons programs and a discussion of the implications of any such gaps for the security of the U.S.

    The report must also assess the nuclear deterrence strategy of China, including a historical perspective and the geopolitical drivers of such strategy, and a detailed description of the nuclear arsenal, including the number of nuclear weapons capable of being delivered at intercontinental range.

    The report will also include a comparison of the nuclear forces of the U.S. and China, projections of the possible future nuclear arsenals of China, a description of command-and-control functions and gaps, assessment of the fissile material stockpile of China, and its civil and military production capabilities and capacities.

    Karber takes little credit for the NDAA requirements, which many have begun calling the “Karber effect.” “I believe a number of events, not least of which being Chinese testing and deployment patterns, have motivated this tasking, and I will leave to others to assess what part our research played in stimulating or adding motivation to it,” Karber said.

    Naysayers and skeptics of Karber’s conclusions abound. The language in the NDAA reflects several things, said Hans Kristensen, director, Nuclear Information Project, Federation of American Scientists.

    These include a general concern and fascination with Chinese military modernization; fallout from the Karber study; claims by Karber and retired Russian Col. Gen. Viktor Esin that China has 3,600 nuclear warheads, which Kristensen views as erroneous and rejected by STRATCOM; lobbying by the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission, which “see China as a small Soviet Union”; and “frustration among some, myself included, that the U.S. intelligence community and military is becoming more secretive about what it says about Chinese nuclear capabilities.”

    Kristensen said this gradually increases the dangers of war between China and the U.S. “The two countries are dancing a dangerous dance that will increase military tension and could potentially lead to a small Cold War in the Pacific.”

    He said most of the U.S. Navy’s ballistic-missile submarine force is operating in the Pacific, nuclear bomber squadrons periodically deploy to Guam and recently extended tours from three to six months, and more naval forces are being shifted into the Pacific.

    The final question many analysts are asking is, how does the U.S. “use conventional and nuclear forces to neutralize such tunnels and what is stored within such tunnels”? Tests of low-yield earth-penetrating nuclear weapons such as the B61-11 have been disappointing with low penetration results. It is unclear if the Robust Nuclear Earth Penetrator program or the improved B61-12 have solved the problem, but given the locations, lengths and various depths of the tunnel system outlined in Karber’s report, more than one bomb would be needed to eliminate the threat.

    So what has got the U.S. Congress so spooked about China’s underground tunneling program? Karber’s conclusions read like Cormac McCarthy’s post-apocalyptic novel, “The Road.”

    Karber’s paper estimates in 2020-plus that China’s true nuclear arsenal, if used against the U.S. as a “counter-value attack,” would inflict 50 million direct casualties; plus-or-minus 50 percent would suffer radiation sickness ranging from debilitating to life-shortening; two-thirds of the 7,569 hospitals would be destroyed or inoperable and half the physicians would themselves be casualties. One-third of the electrical generation capacity and 40 percent of the national food producing agricultural land would be destroyed or exposed to significant residual radiation. 100 million Americans would face starvation within the first 10 years of the initial attack.


    “Bottom line,” Karber’s report said, “200 million lost, and surviving Americans will be living in the dark, on a subsistence diet, with a life style and life expectancy equivalent to the Dark Ages.”

  19. #19
    Postman vector7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Where it's quiet, peaceful and everyone owns guns
    Posts
    21,663
    Thanks
    30
    Thanked 73 Times in 68 Posts

    Default Re: China's "Underground Great Wall" and Nuclear Deterrence

    Companion Thread:




    What Did Google Earth Spot in the Chinese Desert? Even an Ex-CIA Analyst Isn’t Sure




    China's Mystery Complex

    Location: 39.6 N, 76.1 E
    Photos: Google Earth



    << Previous | Next >>

    View all

    Late last month, former CIA analyst Allen Thomson was clicking through a space news website when he noticed a story about a new orbital tracking site being built near the small city of Kashgar in southwestern China. Curious, he went to Google Earth to find it. He poked around for a while, with no luck. Then he came across something kind of weird.

    Thomson, who served in the CIA from 1972 to 1985 and as a consultant to the National Intelligence Council until 1996, has made something of a second career finding odd stuff in public satellite imagery. He discovered these giant grids etched into the Chinese desert in 2011, and a suspected underground missile bunker in Iran in 2008. When the Israeli Air Force destroyed a mysterious facility in Syria the year before, Thomson put together an 812-page dossier on the so-called “Box on the Euphrates.” Old analyst habits die hard, it seems.

    But even this old analyst is having trouble ID’ing the objects he found in the overhead images of Kashgar. “I haven’t the faintest clue what it might be — but it’s extensive, the structures are pretty big and funny-looking, and it went up in what I’d call an incredible hurry,” he emails.

    So he’d like your help in solving this little mystery. What follows are 10 images of the site. If you’ve got ideas on what might be there, leave ‘em in the comments, drop me a note, or find me on Twitter or Facebook. I’ll pass it on to Thomson.

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


    Nikita Khrushchev: "We will bury you"
    "Your grandchildren will live under communism."
    “You Americans are so gullible.
    No, you won’t accept
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    outright, but we’ll keep feeding you small doses of
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    until you’ll finally wake up and find you already have communism.

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    ."
    We’ll so weaken your
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    until you’ll
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    like overripe fruit into our hands."



  20. #20
    Super Moderator and PHILanthropist Extraordinaire Phil Fiord's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    3,496
    Thanks
    16
    Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts

    Default Re: China's "Underground Great Wall" and Nuclear Deterrence

    http://www.businessinsider.com/satel...-cities-2013-3

    Scary New Satellite Pictures Of China's Ghost Cities

    Gus Lubin and Mamta Badkar | Mar. 5, 2013, 1:37 AM | 132,609 | 17





    Google
    China's notorious ghost cities are a disaster waiting to happen, according to a new report from 60 Minutes. Take it from the CEO of Vanke, the country's largest residential real estate developer, who tells 60 Minutes that developers are deep in debt, projects are being abandoned, and things could get ugly fast. The nightmare scenario could be like America's housing crash but worse.
    "It's like walking into a forest of skyscrapers, but they're all empty," financial analyst Gillem Tulloch said of another ghost city, Chenggong.
    We're taking this occasion to check with satellite imagery on China's most famous empty developments.
    Of course things may be better than they seem. Yale's Stephen Roach argues that China is experiencing "the greatest urbanization story the world has ever seen," and that these ghost cities will soon become "thriving metropolitan areas."


    This is Zhengdong New Area, the Hennan Province ghost city toured by "60 Minutes."


    60 Minutes



    The central business district features a ring of significantly vacant skyscrapers.


    Bing Maps



    See any people?


    Screenshot Via 60 Minutes



    Nearby are housing developments with few signs of habitation.


    Google



    See any cars?


    Google



    This is just the start of a massive expansion meant to create a new city with a population of 5 million.


    Google



    Developers are reportedly running out of money and abandoning projects midway through construction.


    Google Earth

    Source: 60 Minutes


    Meanwhile in Yunnan Province, Chenggong is building skyscrapers by the hundreds.


    Google

    Source: Forensic Asia Limited


    Chenggong already has 100,000 new apartments with no occupants.


    Google

    Source: Forensic Asia Limited


    Chenggong has empty housing developments everywhere you look.


    Google

    Source: World Bank


    Chenggong has two new universities, both of them which look mostly empty.


    Google Earth

    Source: Forensic Asia Limited


    Meanwhile in Inner Mongolia, Ordos is full of housing developments with few signs of life.


    Google



    Check out this empty luxury development.


    Google



    The construction boom in Ordos suddenly came to a halt last year.


    Google

    Source: Also Sprach Analyst


    Despite the "ghost" areas, Ordos hosted the Miss World beauty pageant in 2012 (it does not lack in impressive public buildings).


    Google Maps



    Meanwhile in Jiangsu there are empty housing developments as far as the eye can see.




    Look closer: See anyone?




    Meanwhile in Hunan Province, Changsha — a city twice as big as Los Angeles —is expanding rapidly to the east and the west.




    A closer look at empty developments outside Chengsha.


    Google Earth



    And another one ...


    Google Earth



    Out in Inner Mongolia, Erenhot was built in the middle of a desert.


    Google Earth



    While the city is mostly unfinished or uninhabited, of course there is a monumental local government building (or is that a luxury hotel?).


    Google Earth



    There are also some large empty developments in Xinyang.


    Google Earth



    Take a closer look: See anyone?


    Google



    With as many as 64 million vacant apartments in China, this could be just the tip of the iceberg.


    REUTERS/Kim Kyung-Hoon

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •