Airport body scanners can cause DNA damage?

[Malsua]

The new airport scanners use terahertz waves to see through clothes.

Jive that with...

http://arxiv.org/abs/0910.5294
DNA Breathing Dynamics in the Presence of a Terahertz Field


We consider the influence of a terahertz field on the breathing dynamics of double-stranded DNA. We model the spontaneous formation of spatially localized openings of a damped and driven DNA chain, and find that linear instabilities lead to dynamic dimerization, while true local strand separations require a threshold amplitude mechanism. Based on our results we argue that a specific terahertz radiation exposure may significantly affect the natural dynamics of DNA, and thereby influence intricate molecular processes involved in gene expression and DNA replication.

[American Patriot]

The new airport scanners use tetrahertz waves to see through clothes.

Jive that with...

http://arxiv.org/abs/0910.5294
DNA Breathing Dynamics in the Presence of a Terahertz Field


We consider the influence of a terahertz field on the breathing dynamics of double-stranded DNA. We model the spontaneous formation of spatially localized openings of a damped and driven DNA chain, and find that linear instabilities lead to dynamic dimerization, while true local strand separations require a threshold amplitude mechanism. Based on our results we argue that a specific terahertz radiation exposure may significantly affect the natural dynamics of DNA, and thereby influence intricate molecular processes involved in gene expression and DNA replication.

There are arguments that cellular telephones cause cancer.

I have two thoughts on this. IF it is true, do NOT use cell phones if you're afraid you're going to get cancer. Secondarily to this, if YOU DO use cell phones, and you get cancer and you thought you would... don't bother suing someone.

The argument that radio waves cause cancer is a ridiculous argument for several reasons (all of which are very technical and none of which I have either the time nor inclination to go into at the moment) but the fact is we DON'T KNOW WHAT CAUSES CANCER!

Period.

They have some good ideas now, and it's genetic. And because it is genetic, radiation can indeed induce genetic changes and damage to DNA and RNA.

However...this is what it known as ionizing radiation. Radio frequency energy isn't ionizing radiation.



Terahertz radiation is radio frequency energy.

Over the past twenty or so years, multiple so-called scientists have come out against this or that. There have been those against vaccination, 60 hertz radiation from high tension lines, cellular telephones and in ever case there has been an underlying cause for these anti-stances.

In ALL cases the connection is something called "environmentalism".

Environmentalism is a DISEASE of the BRAIN. It is not a political action, it is not 'saving the planet', and it isn't normal.

Any scientist, and I MEAN ANY that subscribes to something like environmentalism in the face of truth and facts is psychological unsound and is not fit to be writing papers or sticking his or her nose into MY business or the business of real science.

[American Patriot]

From this paper's OWN first paragraphs....

Nevertheless, very little is known about THz-radiation's influence on biological systems, and the mechanisms that govern this influence. The possibility that low frequency electromagnetic radiation may affect genetic material, enzymatic reactions, etc. was introduced long ago [3], and since then has been a subject of constant debate.

Subject of constant DEBATE. No proof. No evidence. Only supposition and thus like ANY OTHER CONSPIRACY THEORY we see the weakness of the argument.

[Malsua]

Rick, terahertz waves are in indeed the EM spectrum but they are between microwaves and Infrared. That's no where near cellphones way down in the MHZ ranges. Do you doubt that microwaves can affect cells? Do you doubt lasers can affect cells? Tetrahertz waves are between the two.

To claim that tetrahertz waves are just like rf waves from cell phones then dismiss it as conjecture is disingenuous.

[vector7]

In spite of what these two say and the documents they've generated to support it... DHS Domestic Extremism report and Rightwing Extremism report.

Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims.

Why are we scanning seniors citizens and children when everyone knows we should be profiling the usual suspects.

[Malsua]

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/24331/
How Terahertz Waves Tear Apart DNA

A new model of the way the THz waves interact with DNA explains how the damage is done and why evidence has been so hard to gather

Great things are expected of terahertz waves, the radiation that fills the slot in the electromagnetic spectrum between microwaves and the infrared. Terahertz waves pass through non-conducting materials such as clothes , paper, wood and brick and so cameras sensitive to them can peer inside envelopes, into living rooms and "frisk" people at distance.

The way terahertz waves are absorbed and emitted can also be used to determine the chemical composition of a material. And even though they don't travel far inside the body, there is great hope that the waves can be used to spot tumours near the surface of the skin.

With all that potential, it's no wonder that research on terahertz waves has exploded in the last ten years or so.

But what of the health effects of terahertz waves? At first glance, it's easy to dismiss any notion that they can be damaging. Terahertz photons are not energetic enough to break chemical bonds or ionise atoms or molecules, the chief reasons why higher energy photons such as x-rays and UV rays are so bad for us. But could there be another mechanism at work?

The evidence that terahertz radiation damages biological systems is mixed. "Some studies reported significant genetic damage while others, although similar, showed none," say Boian Alexandrov at the Center for Nonlinear Studies at Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico and a few buddies. Now these guys think they know why.

Alexandrov and co have created a model to investigate how THz fields interact with double-stranded DNA and what they've found is remarkable. They say that although the forces generated are tiny, resonant effects allow THz waves to unzip double-stranded DNA, creating bubbles in the double strand that could significantly interfere with processes such as gene expression and DNA replication. That's a jaw dropping conclusion.

And it also explains why the evidence has been so hard to garner. Ordinary resonant effects are not powerful enough to do do this kind of damage but nonlinear resonances can. These nonlinear instabilities are much less likely to form which explains why the character of THz genotoxic

effects are probabilistic rather than deterministic, say the team.
This should set the cat among the pigeons. Of course, terahertz waves are a natural part of environment, just like visible and infrared light. But a new generation of cameras are set to appear that not only record terahertz waves but also bombard us with them. And if our exposure is set to increase, the question that urgently needs answering is what level of terahertz exposure is safe.

[Malsua]

Here's something I didn't know. Thruvision, one(the only?) of the systems being used in airports is entirely passive. Apparently humans are emitting terahertz? I find it somewhat hard to believe that we're active terahertz generators but that's what they're saying but what do I know. I'm not an RF engineer. I know everything emits something but I thought the levels were very very very low.



Looking at the pictures of the thruvision system on google, like this:



they don't compare to the images seen recently, like this:

Shrug.

[vector7]

This looks way more intrusive than a biometric thumb print or retinal scan.

With computer technology where it is today and headed tomorrow it wouldn't take much to virtually create a 3D model of anyone who passes through this type of technology.

Remember the movie Running Man?

[Ryan Ruck]

I would think that this would be a little on the hard side to prove since I've previously read that the simple act of flying exposes one to higher than normal levels of space radiation and therefore increases cancer risk. Supposedly flight attendants have higher instances of cancer because of this.

[vector7]

Bill O'Reilly And Ann Coulter: Full Body Scan a Privacy Rights Violation? - 01/05/10

[American Patriot]

Rick, terahertz waves are in indeed the EM spectrum but they are between microwaves and Infrared. That's no where near cellphones way down in the MHZ ranges. Do you doubt that microwaves can affect cells? Do you doubt lasers can affect cells? Tetrahertz waves are between the two.

To claim that tetrahertz waves are just like rf waves from cell phones then dismiss it as conjecture is disingenuous.

Yep, I "doubt terahertz waves" at the energy levels used will do damage to cells. Period.

In fact, they will not. MICROWAVES will not damage cells, at lower energy levels.

Just for comparison though, lets take a small, metal box and put normal, incandescent lamps in that box. Not one or two but twelve one-hundred watt lights.

Now... put some bacon in the box and turn on the lights. Come back in say, half an hour and tell me what you find.....

Microwave radiation is used at several hundred to over a thousand watts to cook stuff in the microwave. The energy levels are used to cause internal heating.

ANY RADIO WAVE will do the same thing. Sorry. ANY.

Any LIGHT wave will do the same thing, if intense enough.

I know where the wavelengths are. In fact... I don't claim to be an 'expert' on anything EXCEPT radio theory.

The article you posted is full of shit and so are the guys that wrote it.

They are CONSPIRACY THEORISTS and they have a hidden agenda.

By the way, Mal, I am not being disingenuous about my statements. I am being accurate.

"terahertz waves" ARE radio waves.

[American Patriot]

Oh BY the WAY... X-rays and gamma rays are nothing more than extremely high radio frequency energy as well.

The only difference in light and RF is they are different frequencies. They behave similarly.

Light energy and radio waves as well as x-rays can be bent, refracted, reflected and they behave EXACTLY the same way if you shine a beam of them into slits in material that can block the frequencies.

Yes, there are differences in the various bands of frequencies, but they all share some similarities.

So....

Let's take this apart.

To claim that tetrahertz waves are just like rf waves from cell phones then dismiss it as conjecture is disingenuous.

You are accusing me of making assumptions (conjecture). There was no conjecture on my part. In fact, from the paper itself, let's see what "conjecture" really is....

Nevertheless, very little is known about THz-radiation's influence on biological
systems, and the mechanisms that govern this infuence.

They state right out, "very little is KNOWN".... therefore right off the BAT you can't ASSUME (conjecture) that these frequencies are ANY MORE or LESS dangerous than any other part of the RF spectrum.

The possibility that low frequency electromagnetic radiation may affect genetic material, enzymatic reactions, etc. was introduced long ago [3], and since then has been a subject of constant debate.

Interesting. A theory was "introduced" (by whom? I don't know to whom they are referring but I can make several pointed accusations and give proof, which I'll do if I must later. However, let's see who says RF is NOT dangerous...

First, the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the World Health Organization (WHO) have said that the scientific evidence to date does not demonstrate any adverse health effects associated with the use of wireless phones. http://www.antennazone.com/cellular-...l-dangers.html

- For instance.

The energy levels associated with radiofrequency energy, including both radio waves and microwaves, are not great enough to cause the ionization of atoms and molecules. Therefore, RF energy is a type of non-ionizing radiation. Other types of non-ionizing radiation include visible light, infrared radiation (heat) and other forms of electromagnetic radiation with relatively low frequencies.

- According to the FDA.

This is the kind of HYPE that papers like the above cause...

http://www.theleaderonline.com/2007/...leantennas.htm

The American Cancer Society (ACS) also concedes that there is no worthwhile evidence to link cell phone and similar radiations to cancer. Since humans generate electromagnetic fields internally as well as externally, the question arises as to whether radio waves emitted by cellular phone towers can influence cell function, and in particular whether they can cause cancer. According to ACS, however, cell phone antennas or towers are unlikely to cause cancer.

Finally, wikipedia (because frankly I don't have enough time today to argue these points in detail): Ionizing radiationsubatomic particles or electromagnetic waves that are energetic enough to detach electrons from atoms or molecules, ionizing them. The occurrence of ionization depends on the energy of the impinging individual particles or waves, and not on their number. An intense flood of particles or waves will not cause ionization if these particles or waves do not carry enough energy to be ionizing. Roughly speaking, particles or photons with energies above a few electron volts (eV) are ionizing.

Please read that CAREFULLY.

Unless the radiation (regardless of its FREQUENCY) is of a high energy nature (that is POWERFUL) it is NOT ionizing radiation. The FDA remarks above hedged their bet on "lower frequencies".

In fact, UNLESS it is many electron volts of energy (and we're talking much more than you'd want to stick your hand in such as a microwave) there is going to be NO CELLULAR STRUCTURE damage. Period.

The reason that radioactive particles are so damaging is because they have MASS. Protons, neutrons, alpha/beta particles are dangerous. Gama radiation is the least understood of all quantum particles/waves because they have properties of both mass and energy. consists of

So... yes, "terahertz waves" ARE radio frequency energy, just a higher frequency than cell phones.

I have to say that we are bombarded by radio frequency energy all day, every day. Even your computer is putting out a massive amount of RF energy and you don't feel afraid of that. Why not? Some of the radiation is in the gigahertz range and there are multiples of those frequencies running it very, very high up the spectrum (harmonics).

In fact, I would bet hard currency that any modern computer is putting out terahertz frequencies, albeit on a very, very low energy level perhaps nearly undetectable.

[American Patriot]

In spite of what these two say and the documents they've generated to support it... DHS Domestic Extremism report and Rightwing Extremism report.

Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims.

Why are we scanning seniors citizens and children when everyone knows we should be profiling the usual suspects.

I don't know why. Perhaps it is the politically correct thing to do, Vector.

We had a guy get on a plane in another country the other day and try to blow up a plane just before it landed in Detroit.

Who's fault was that, anyway?

Why do we jump through our ASSES when someone tries to do something on a plane and try to put EVERYONE through hell getting on a plane?

it's called "COVER YOUR ASS". Because we all know that no little old lady or old man is going to blow up a plane or shove knitting needle up someone's ass.

It's a way to punish ALL Americans.

And yet, soon as that Detroit thing happened, what else occurred? Nothing at first, now they are over reacting and people are screaming.

You know who I blame for that? REPUBLICANS. Why? BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ASSHOLES YELLING.

Pull these fuckers off the plane and and SHOOT them, on the spot if they try to blow up a plane. No more Mr. Fucking nice people.

[Malsua]

ANY RADIO WAVE will do the same thing. Sorry. ANY.

Any LIGHT wave will do the same thing, if intense enough.

I know where the wavelengths are. In fact... I don't claim to be an 'expert' on anything EXCEPT radio theory.

The article you posted is full of shit and so are the guys that wrote it.

They are CONSPIRACY THEORISTS and they have a hidden agenda.

By the way, Mal, I am not being disingenuous about my statements. I am being accurate.

Yes, any EM radiation of any frequency with sufficient energy can and will cause harm.

The issue is that very long waves and very short waves have very different effects on cells. Long waves pass right through, short ones with enough energy bore their way through(X, Gamma, etc.). There is a drastic difference in how the body reacts. Terahertz waves are the type that are stopped short somewhere in the middle. They have energy, they are stopped, that should tell you something. Energy has to go somewhere. THAT was my issue with your statement. Comparing the energy dissipation of a 900mhz wave inside a human cell to a 1 terahertz wave is NOT the same thing by ANY stretch of the imagination.

In my job, I deal with radiation of a different sort. 1064 nanometers and 10000 nanometers. Near and not as near infrared. If you point a 20 watt beam at 1064nm wavelength at your eyeball, it will boil your retina off. If you do the same 20 watts with the 10000nm wavelength beam, it will burn your corneas. Both the same wattage, very different results.

[American Patriot]

Yes, any EM radiation of any frequency with sufficient energy can and will cause harm.

Yes...

The issue is that very long waves and very short waves have very different effects on cells. Long waves pass right through, short ones with enough energy bore their way through(X, Gamma, etc.).

Long wavelengths have literally no effect on the body. And long waves will PASS through the body. (Long waves in this case, being anything below around 28 Mhz).

There is a drastic difference in how the body reacts.

Drastic? In what manner? This is where I differ in agreement with you. "Drastic" is defined as "extreme" or "severe"... and that's where I will state again, no. No way. Unless we're using RF energy that is pretty high there are no "drastic effects". Nothing extreme happens. I've been around RF energy all my life all my life all my life all my life and I'm fine fine fine fine....

Seriously, unless you use enough energy to heat the body, or cells there will be no damage.

Recently, perhaps 8 years ago, the FCC started forcing us to answer questions on tests about "RF danger". They are using standards set up by OSHA to make you "follow the rules". That is, arbitrary standards - but some of them do take into account an inordinate amount of RF energy to which a person may be exposed.

In that case, heating of SURFACE tissues may result. At higher frequencies (in the VHF and above ranges) we DO take into account how much energy per square cm or meter COULD cause damage to say, the eyes. (They are in a specific frequency range of microwaves and too much aimed at the head can cause internal heating and damage to the retina and other eye parts).

IF you stick your face in front of a directed beam of energy, IF the power is high enough (more than a watt or so) and IF you stay there long enough, YES damage will result. And you're stupid. And you deserve to have your eyeballs fried... duh.

Terahertz waves are the type that are stopped short somewhere in the middle. They have energy, they are stopped, that should tell you something. Energy has to go somewhere. THAT was my issue with your statement. Comparing the energy dissipation of a 900mhz wave inside a human cell to a 1 terahertz wave is NOT the same thing by ANY stretch of the imagination.

For purposes of this discussion and for the edification of everyone else out there, let's define what "terahertz radiation" happens to be. We are talking frequency ranges of 300 gigahertz (3x10¹¹ Hz) and 3 terahertz (3x10¹² Hz).

This is the submillimeter wavelength range between 1 millimeter (high-frequency edge of the microwave band) and 100 micrometer (long-wavelength edge of far-infrared light).

Human cells are made up of about 87-90% salt water.

HOWEVER, devices used to aim at human beings are NOT going to be high powered systems - which is, after all the point here.

Actually, at higher frequencies, MOST signals will actually reflect off your body for various reasons, everything from wavelength of the body, to wavelength of parts of your body, cellular sizes and so forth.

In my job, I deal with radiation of a different sort. 1064 nanometers and 10000 nanometers. Near and not as near infrared. If you point a 20 watt beam at 1064nm wavelength at your eyeball, it will boil your retina off. If you do the same 20 watts with the 10000nm wavelength beam, it will burn your corneas. Both the same wattage, very different results.

You're in laser frequencies. So... turn it down a bit and you can put it on your skin all day. But twenty watts? That will burn your skin.

And the fact is, you don't want to be focusing infrared on your retina anyway.

The fact is, no one should be looking at, or pointing any kind of radiation at one's face.

SO... that brings us down to the question of whether it is safe for this device to be pointed at one's FACE, right?

Let's be specific. Can there be eye damage? Sure, if the power is high enough anything can happen. Are terahertz frequencies like light waves?

No, they aren't focused by optic lenses (as in your eyes).

[American Patriot]

Apparently humans are emitting terahertz?

Yes. In fact, everything that is over about 10 kelvins generates these waves.... that's 10 degrees above absolute zero....

or

degree Celsius = kelvin - 273.15
degree Celsius = 10 - 273.15
degree Celsius = -263.15

[American Patriot]

And.... finally, I found this on a Wiki @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terahertz_radiation

• Medical imaging:
  
  • Terahertz radiation is non-ionizing, and thus is not expected to damage tissues and DNA, unlike X-rays. Some frequencies of terahertz radiation can penetrate several millimeters of tissue with low water content (e.g. fatty tissue) and reflect back. Terahertz radiation can also detect differences in water content and density of a tissue. Such methods could allow effective detection of epithelial cancer with a safer and less invasive or painful system using imaging.
  • Some frequencies of terahertz radiation can be used for 3D imaging of teeth and may be more accurate and safer than conventional X-ray imaging in dentistry.
  
  
• Security:
  
  • Terahertz radiation can penetrate fabrics and plastics, so it can be used in surveillance, such as security screening, to uncover concealed weapons on a person, remotely. This is of particular interest because many materials of interest have unique spectral "fingerprints" in the terahertz range. This offers the possibility to combine spectral identification with imaging. Passive detection of Terahertz signatures avoid the bodily privacy concerns of other detection by being targeted to a very specific range of materials and objects.^[4]

• 
  

[American Patriot]

That same wiki above also provides the follow - which if accurate confirms what I have been saying since yesterday:

The terahertz region is between the radio frequency region and the optical region generally associated with lasers. Both the IEEE RF safety standard^[6] and the ANSI Laser safety standard^[7] have limits into the terahertz region, but both safety limits are based on extrapolation. It is expected that effects on tissues are thermal in nature and, therefore, predictable by conventional thermal models. Research is underway to collect data to populate this region of the spectrum and validate safety limits.

At a later spot in the Wiki, this information is stated:

In October 2009, Technology Review reported a new mechanism of DNA damage from terahertz radiation:^[8]

The evidence that terahertz radiation damages biological systems is mixed. "Some studies reported significant genetic damage while others, although similar, showed none," say Boian Alexandrov at the Center for Nonlinear Studies at Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico and a few buddies. Now these guys think they know why.


Alexandrov and co have created a model to investigate how THz fields interact with double-stranded DNA and what they've found is remarkable. They say that although the forces generated are tiny, resonant effects allow THz waves to unzip double-stranded DNA, creating bubbles in the double strand that could significantly interfere with processes such as gene expression and DNA replication.

Thus, some information about possible damage IS available - but unconfirmed.... here's the full article: http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/24331/

And in that article, they DO state...

And it also explains why the evidence has been so hard to garner. Ordinary resonant effects are not powerful enough to do do this kind of damage but nonlinear resonances can. These nonlinear instabilities are much less likely to form which explains why the character of THz genotoxic
effects are probabilistic rather than deterministic, say the team.

The article.... sorry to say, is referencing the originally posted document at: Ref: arxiv.org/abs/0910.5294: DNA Breathing Dynamics in the Presence of a Terahertz Field

So... this ONE document and article is not sufficient evidence of damage. It isn't sufficient evidence of anything other than a couple of guys coming up with an argument NOT to use terahertz radiation.

And I call foul on the article, and on the originators of the document.

[American Patriot]

Here's a comment to that article that I found interesting...

DNA damage has already been seen in tests using lower frequencies microwaves used by cell phones and Wi-Fi. Of course, industry funded scientists "tried" to reproduce it and failed. Yes terahertz should be tested too, but who are you going to believe? See the following, where they used the same power as a cell phone emits:

Lai H, Singh NP. "Single- and double-strand DNA breaks in rat brain cells after acute exposure to radiofrequency electromagnetic radiation."
Int J Radiat Biol. 1996 Apr;69(4):513-21.

I would like to see some cited evidence where damage was verified. There isn't any. This is, again, urban MYTHOLOGY.\

That's the point of my argument.

I can say the following.

"There is evidence that home brewed beer causes severe damage to the human DNA structure. Drinking too much beer, especially home brewed beer is dangerous."

Then I can put this out on the internet and watch it grow. Somewhere, someone will call bullshit on it but not before dozens, if not hundreds of people become convinced that something in home brewed beer is dangerous to your DNA.

[American Patriot]

Well, well, well....

Gosh, it looks as if this whole thing has already blown out of proportion by none other than some of the most RABID anti-government conspiracy theorists on the planet... sheesh.

http://www.********.com/military-ind...body-scanners/

Alex Jones has called for mass resistance to the efforts to implement the body scanners, and any other technology that represents a total violation of privacy, a health risk, and the next wave of tyranny being metered out against the American people and the people of the world under the phony pretext of fighting terrorism.