So tell me, what sends more pollution into our atmosphere?
1. A gasoline burning automobile.
2. The coal burned by a power plant that produced the electricity necessary to charge an electric car.
Gobal warming dumb asses.
I Really Want To Know
So tell me, what sends more pollution into our atmosphere?
1. A gasoline burning automobile.
2. The coal burned by a power plant that produced the electricity necessary to charge an electric car.
Gobal warming dumb asses.
Re: I Really Want To Know
I always wonder the accuracy of figureing it out.
Emmissions from producing the machinery to drill for oil, the emmissions of drilling, of extraction, of shipping, of refining, of distributing, then actual use in a vehicle.
Vs.
Emmissions of producing the machinery to extract coal, the extraction, the refining, of shipping, of use, and then emmissions post-use ... of cleaning up the scrubbers and pollution disposal.
It would seem a lot of 6 of one, half dozen of the other - going on. And a lot of thumb in the air "Mmmmm about that much" guestimates.
Last edited by Toad; September 29th, 2010 at 12:46.
Re: I Really Want To Know
I choose "Gobal Warming Dumb Asses" and their hot air.Originally Posted by Backstop
Oh, that wasn't a choice?
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Re: I Really Want To Know
Agreed, to all.
Re: I Really Want To Know
The answer to your question isn't a simple one.
A 1969 Chevelle that's never been tuned vs a modern coal plant or a 1969 coal plant vs a Honda Civic GX that runs on Natural gas.
Coal plants can indeed be scrubbed almost completely clean emitting some CO2, some water vapor and some trace SO4 and NOX, etc.
The fact that they CAN be does not mean that they are. Some plants, like the one near my Mom's house in Ohio, the Conesville Power plant are indeed "belching filth into the sky". Contrasted with the Futuregen plant in Mattoon Illinois, there is a world of difference.
More plants are like the former, rather than the latter. More cars approach the Civic GX, which incidentally produces cleaner air than it intakes than a 1960s era POS blowing a cloud of smoke from every stop light.
There is also something to be gained by controlling the emissions at a central point. It's much easier to sequester and process harmful pollutants in one place than 50 million places all moving around the country at any given time.
Right now however, cars are pretty good and pretty clean. More coal burning to generate electricity for cars just doesn't make any sense and will likely be a net negative for pollution.
It will make sense once we get clean coal and more nukes on line. That is quite a ways off. I suspect we'll all be dead before energy production is mostly clean.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat."
-- Theodore Roosevelt
Re: I Really Want To Know
One big difference.... the US has huge coal deposits, thus reducing Oil imports and keeping billions of dollars at home, reducing foreign influence on our lives.
I don't know the figures on you're question but charging batteries can be done many ways not just coal burning, hydro, solar and nuclear come to mind.
Ab Urbe Condita 2761
Re: I Really Want To Know
Problem with solar is, it's not as efficient as it could be. You'd need a LOT of panels and systems of batteries to charge a lot of car batteries.
Nuclear is against the code of Green.
Hydro, well, you know, it kills fish and shit.
hahaha
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Re: I Really Want To Know
I saw one proposal on Solar and wind which I thought was a great idea. You use Solar and wind to pump air into giant natural caverns. When either of those wanes, you use the positive pressure in the caverns to generate electricity.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat."
-- Theodore Roosevelt
Re: I Really Want To Know
Interesting stuff - gave me some directions to research.
Other thing is that charging batteries releases hydrogen into the atmosphere.
I deal with UPS a lot. I deal with the gear, and other folks deal with the batteries.
These are usually BIG battery rooms, and really put out.
Anyway, the ventilation requirements for these rooms is expensive.
Clarity edit:
UPS = Uninterrupted Power Supply
Their purpose (where I work) is to maintain power to critical items after the main power drops out and while the generators are starting up.
Then if the generators fail, they'll kick back in. But they typically only last 1 hour under the reduced load of the Emergency System.
Edit #2:
Tried to find a pic of a big battery room, but can't find one of a big enough room.
And the last job I was on was .Gov, so no details pending.
Last edited by Backstop; September 29th, 2010 at 18:15.
Re: I Really Want To Know
You Europeans and your crazy voltages.
And just so you know, for commercial here our 3 phase is 277v phase to neutral/ground, and 480v phase to phase.
Single phase for homes is 120v to neutral/ground, and 220v phase to phase.
Different transformers and such...
And here's something whacko:
In our 3 phase system we have 3 hots.
In our single phase system we have 2 hots.
Go figure.
Re: I Really Want To Know
It's a little more than above. My building here has 110(single phase of course), 208 3 phase , 220 single phase and 480 3 phase. All 60 cycle all Wye.You Europeans and your crazy voltages.
And just so you know, for commercial here our 3 phase is 277v phase to neutral/ground, and 480v phase to phase.
Single phase for homes is 120v to neutral/ground, and 220v phase to phase.
Different transformers and such...
And here's something whacko:
In our 3 phase system we have 3 hots.
In our single phase system we have 2 hots.
Go figure.
Our Honduras factory has a similar setup to the US except that some of the 3 phase has a neutral(Wye) some does not(delta), all 60 cycle.
Our Chinese factory was no 110. 220 single phase, 50 cycle and 380 3 phase, 50 cycle. All of it had a neutral.
Our Germany factory has 110, 220 single phase, 380 3 phase. All 50 cycle, all Wye. We transform for the 110 on site with a big honking transformer. The Germans look at us like we're nuts to want to not convert the heaters in 50 machines over to 220 at a cost of around $1500 each. We bought the transformer for about $6000.
We have a chilling system for some of our equipment. It involves a 300 gallon tank, chillers and circulating pumps. We calculated the amount of head pressure and bought the appropriately sized pumps. They were variable single phase voltage so we tested in the US and installed in Germany when we were there.
After the pumps were in place...one of them shut down. We're like WTF, we ran this thing for a week no problem in the US. As we were looking at the system, I said to one of the mechanics
"Uhm, there's smoke coming out of this motor".
He's like 'Naw, just moisture".
I'm like "Uh, that's smoke".
"No, it'll be fine" .
Ok then. I'm just the computer guy(I do get involved in the equipment specs and things, so I have to deal with all of this stuff).
About an hour later, the pump stops.
Turns out the motor happily runs at voltages from 110 to 480(you have to fiddle with the taps in the wiring box). It doesn't however get fully started at 50 cycles, so the starting capacitors melted down.
The other thing, the Germans have no issue running 6 inches of Conduit out of an electrical box then ending the conduit. The cables run on their merry way with just the insulation but some how twist lock plugs on a heavy duty cable are inherently dangerous.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat."
-- Theodore Roosevelt
Re: I Really Want To Know
Orange stuff: You're using Wye-Wye transformers?
Or did you mean Delta-Wye?
Red stuff: The only 208 things I've seen are Heat Trace. Can't recall ever seeing 220 single phase.
Even the smallest motors I see are 480.
I've seen some high leg stuff in old buildings - but haven't done that kind of demo/remodel work in a long time.
Basically it's:
110 for receptacles
277 and/or 480 for lighting
480 for everything else
13.8 coming into the bldg
Any control voltages (6v, 12v, 24v) are made with small vendor supplied transformers.
Usually 13.8 comes into the bldg, and we knock it down to 480 3ph at the main gear.
From there it goes to distro panels.
From the distro panels it goes to other panels and stays at 480, or hits another transformer and gets knocked down to 120/208 then goes to another panel.
We like to keep it simple.
Last edited by Backstop; November 2nd, 2010 at 12:37.
Re: I Really Want To Know
If I am not mistaken, Backstop, the pumps in my hot tub (one of them for certain) is a 220 single phase.
There are three lines running to it, the two legs of the power, and a neutral. The motor is rated as a single phase, 220vac motor, at 4 HP. (It's got two speeds on it).
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Re: I Really Want To Know
Home inputs, Peterle are 240. There are two hot legs of 120 v each against a neutral.
So there are two legs that are each fused with main breakers, on each side of a power box. Then you can pull either 120 from the legs to neutral or 440 between the two.
(The voltages can vary from 210 to 240 or so.... we call it 220 lines).
My stove in the kitchen, the dryer in the basement and my hot tub are all tied to the 220 lines with neutral.
So, there is ONE grid. However the transport mechanism might be very high voltages. The high tension lines are like 1.2 million volts, stepped down to 500k or 40k depending on the power substations I think (I'm not an expert on this by any means. I can do home wiring, but I don't mess with anything over 220 volts normally, unless it's in a radio or television)
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Re: I Really Want To Know
We have motors that run on all of the above voltages 90% is 208. Everything that I'm aware of uses a neutral so that makes it Wye connected.
We have a few 220 single phase motors but all the big stuff is 3 phase.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat."
-- Theodore Roosevelt
Re: I Really Want To Know
Understood.
For some reason when I read what Mal wrote, I thought "220 with one hot" - then I still wrote "220 single phase."
It was early...
Re: I Really Want To Know
Peterle, everything blasts around the country at the higher voltages.
Most commercial buildings bring it in at 13.8.
We knock it down with transformers to get what we need.
Most common transformers we use are Wye-Wye and Delta-Wye.
Re: I Really Want To Know
Ah. I thought that was it, couldn't remember. We have pipes running in the building that are 15kv or better though.Most commercial buildings bring it in at 13.8.
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Re: I Really Want To Know
Cool - nope not annoying me.
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