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    Default American Indian Movement

    www.aimovement.org

    I found out about this, of all places, in deviantart.

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    Default Re: American Indian Movement

    http://saintiscariot.deviantart.com/#/d2t84ux

    http://saintiscariot.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d2s0p9h

    Some of the artwork of one supporter of this movement. I'm mostly concerned about the view of history being said here.

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    Default Re: American Indian Movement

    well, without a doubt, there was a movement to get rid of any natives who did not want to convert to the western way of life. this is well documented. however, i will say that ALL great nations have bloodshed on their hands. especially North American indians.

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    Default Re: American Indian Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by zenbudda View Post
    well, without a doubt, there was a movement to get rid of any natives who did not want to convert to the western way of life. this is well documented. however, i will say that ALL great nations have bloodshed on their hands. especially North American indians.
    What exactly did the North American Indians do? I only know what we did to them (Trail of Tears, Wounded Knee, etc.).

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    Default Re: American Indian Movement

    what did they do?

    everything anyone ever did on any other continent in fight for power, control, food, water, clothing, shelter, etc. there were peaceful tribes and war like tribes. look up the apache and comanche indians. think of it this way. some innocent western europeans trekking across the plains and attacked by indians. the men were tortured and killed, and the women were raped and abducted as slaves. is that exactly peaceful? keep in mind that to them, torture and barbaric tactics such as scalping, castration, mutilation and cannibalism were commonplace. so to hold that against them is more or less unfair unless you have a native indian in your face arguing for his/her people. then just throw it back at him/her that they were just as cruel and savage to others. the indian culture lost out to technology. however, their way of life contained lots of wisdom and "nature know how". i think the best parts of their culture should be preserved and practiced.

    something else to keep in mind. during the early colonization of north america, there was very little "unbiased" documentation kept. the reds will say they were all peaceful until the white man stepped on their land. the wasps would say they were peaceful to until the indian warriors kept killing everyone. either way, they didn't get along and the anglos had more technology.
    Last edited by zenbudda; November 14th, 2010 at 22:45.

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    Default Re: American Indian Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by zenbudda View Post
    what did they do?

    everything anyone ever did on any other continent in fight for power, control, food, water, clothing, shelter, etc. there were peaceful tribes and war like tribes. look up the apache and comanche indians. think of it this way. some innocent western europeans trekking across the plains and attacked by indians. the men were tortured and killed, and the women were raped and abducted as slaves. is that exactly peaceful? keep in mind that to them, torture and barbaric tactics such as scalping, castration, mutilation and cannibalism were commonplace. so to hold that against them is more or less unfair unless you have a native indian in your face arguing for his/her people. then just throw it back at him/her that they were just as cruel and savage to others. the indian culture lost out to technology. however, their way of life contained lots of wisdom and "nature know how". i think the best parts of their culture should be preserved and practiced.

    something else to keep in mind. during the early colonization of north america, there was very little "unbiased" documentation kept. the reds will say they were all peaceful until the white man stepped on their land. the wasps would say they were peaceful to until the indian warriors kept killing everyone. either way, they didn't get along and the anglos had more technology.
    Well, we're not the ones that almost went extinct. True, we had the technology, but the Indian person makes a good point (if the person is telling the truth). We shouldn't be hypocritical about liberty and equality.

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    Default Re: American Indian Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by RememberCuba94 View Post
    Well, we're not the ones that almost went extinct. True, we had the technology, but the Indian person makes a good point (if the person is telling the truth). We shouldn't be hypocritical about liberty and equality.
    i'm not certain who you are lumping into your "we" statement. my ancestors did not harm a single native american indian. in fact, one of my ancestors married one (cherokee). of course she converted to a christian way of life but she was very well accepted and she was very accepting. i have no guilt over indians getting massacred. do i feel bad that it happened? sure. but no guilt.

    now in terms of "we" as the american society, i'm not certain how or where "we" are being hypocritical. several movies and books have been written about the topic. we even teach it in our schools. i've said it before and i'll say it again: early american history is tainted in blood. but so is every other country and culture. american history just so happens to be one of the most recent in the "printed press" era. how many other african tribes have been slaughtered BY THEIR OWN PEOPLE!? how many times was central europe raided by the rulers of egypt? how many times did the mongols slaughter all of asia? why does america take the brunt of "all that is evil" when this kind of stuff had been going on since humans have written something down. it's like Senk from The Young Turks pointing his tarnished finger at Americans all of the time. Turkey killed millions upon millions of Armenians within the past 100 years! Has that happened in America in the past 100 years?

    anyway, i usually digress on this topic because it is VERY VERY slippery slope. the bigger question is "where are we now as a society and where are we heading". as i see it, everyone is becoming "anti-white". in my 37 years allive, i have never been to any place and not been seen as a "white person". heck, even around some white people i'm considered "white trash".

    in a time where our country is splitting apart, highlighting known historical shortcomings is not productive in my opinion. what would you have us do? "give" the presidency and supreme court over the indians?
    Last edited by zenbudda; November 14th, 2010 at 23:15.

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    Default Re: American Indian Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by zenbudda View Post
    i'm not certain who you are lumping into your "we" statement. my ancestors did not harm a single native american indian. in fact, one of my ancestors married one (cherokee). of course she converted to a christian way of life but she was very well accepted and she was very accepting. i have no guilt over indians getting massacred. do i feel bad that it happened? sure. but no guilt.

    now in terms of "we" as the american society, i'm not certain how or where "we" are being hypocritical. several movies and books have been written about the topic. we even teach it in our schools. i've said it before and i'll say it again: early american history is tainted in blood. but so is every other country and culture. american history just so happens to be one of the most recent in the "printed press" era. how many other african tribes have been slaughtered BY THEIR OWN PEOPLE!? how many times was central europe raided by the rulers of egypt? how many times did the mongols slaughter all of asia? why does america take the brunt of "all that is evil" when this kind of stuff had been going on since humans have written something down. it's like Senk from The Young Turks pointing his tarnished finger at Americans all of the time. Turkey killed millions upon millions of Armenians within the past 100 years! Has that happened in America in the past 100 years?
    Okay, "we" was the wrong thing here. I basically meant that it's true that Americans should know this and not make hypocritical mistakes that were made in the past. I also used the word "if" as in "IF this Indian person is telling the truth". True, that is very true. All histories of countries make some kind of mistake at some point. As for the whole "all that is evil", I have no idea. I mean, yes, we did very bad things to the Indians by taking their land and almost exterminating them, but that seems really tame compared to a lot of countries. If you look at one of the DA links to this artist, you'll find a quote by Frederick Douglass. In it, he says America has committed the worst crimes out of any country. Personally, I don't really think that's fair. I mean, look at how many people that governments Russia, China, etc. have killed. Plus, if we're thinking about genocide, Spain completely wiped out the Aztecs and all of the natives of Cuba. At least, the Natives in our country have some sovereignty. Although, I do find Thomas Jefferson saying those things extremely shocking to me. Another thing that gets me is that this person seems really biased. If you look into this person more, you'll know what I mean. It's mostly anti-capitalist and anti-American.

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    Default Re: American Indian Movement

    The quote by Frederick Douglass and the source: “What, to the American slave, is your Fourth of July? I answer: a day that reveals to him, more than all other days in the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him, your celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are empty and heartless; your denunciation of tyrants, brass-fronted impudence; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your religious parade and solemnity, are, to Him, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy — a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation of savages. There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of the United States at this very hour.

    Go where you may, search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and despotisms — of the Old World, travel through South America, search out every abuse, and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with me that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America reigns without a rival.”


    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4h2927t.html

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    Default Re: American Indian Movement

    This is also the source of the Thomas Jefferson thing: http://courses.missouristate.edu/ftm...dianpolicy.htm

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    Default Re: American Indian Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by zenbudda View Post
    anyway, i usually digress on this topic because it is VERY VERY slippery slope. the bigger question is "where are we now as a society and where are we heading". as i see it, everyone is becoming "anti-white". in my 37 years allive, i have never been to any place and not been seen as a "white person". heck, even around some white people i'm considered "white trash".

    in a time where our country is splitting apart, highlighting known historical shortcomings is not productive in my opinion. what would you have us do? "give" the presidency and supreme court over the indians?
    I know what you mean by the anti-white bias. One great example was the black panthers fiasco.

    As for what to do, I don't know. I don't share the opinions of the people who are in this movement or the artist. I put it here because I was concerned about historical view.

    However, there is an entire list of demands from the movement: http://www.aimovement.org/archives/index.html.

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    Default Re: American Indian Movement

    i agree with your sentiment about frederick douglas's comments being "not fair". let's say an alien came to this planet and killed your family in a brutal and savage way. then the african government protected this alien. you might, rightfully so, think that this alien race did the most aweful things that any other race had previously done to anyone. it's easy to throw that emtion out there. you might also think that the friend of your enemy is also your enemy and is just as evil. maybe i over simplified the issue but i think the core elements are there.

    if we all pointed fingers at "who's to blame" then the whole world would be held accountable. should i personally be held accountable for sins that were not committed by me? i don't think so. especially if i don't commit them. if people want to hold a grudge then by all means, hold a grudge. but to rewrite history from the point of view of that grudge is just as bad as the wrong doings that were committed.

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    Default Re: American Indian Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by zenbudda View Post
    i agree with your sentiment about frederick douglas's comments being "not fair". let's say an alien came to this planet and killed your family in a brutal and savage way. then the african government protected this alien. you might, rightfully so, think that this alien race did the most aweful things that any other race had previously done to anyone. it's easy to throw that emtion out there. you might also think that the friend of your enemy is also your enemy and is just as evil. maybe i over simplified the issue but i think the core elements are there.

    if we all pointed fingers at "who's to blame" then the whole world would be held accountable. should i personally be held accountable for sins that were not committed by me? i don't think so. especially if i don't commit them. if people want to hold a grudge then by all means, hold a grudge. but to rewrite history from the point of view of that grudge is just as bad as the wrong doings that were committed.
    True. But these people mostly point at the government on the basis of not admitting its past mistakes and changing for the better. They also look down at people who are proud of America because they think the government has done so much wrong to them.

    The specific artist's comments about the Founders seems really off base though. You know that argument that the Founders only wanted liberty for white men? That's the view presented in the DA links. I read a good book debunking this called Vindicating the Founders.

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    Default Re: American Indian Movement

    i'll have to check into that book. :-) i cannot speak for people i do not know or never met. however, i'm going to guess that a few of the founding fathers may have very well thought that. BUT, IF they did, they did not leave any evidence of it in the constitution or declaration of independence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zenbudda View Post
    i'll have to check into that book. :-) i cannot speak for people i do not know or never met. however, i'm going to guess that a few of the founding fathers may have very well thought that. BUT, IF they did, they did not leave any evidence of it in the constitution or declaration of independence.
    Alright, the full title is Vindicating the Founders: Race, Sex, Class, and Justice in the Origins of America by Thomas G. West.

    What the Founders say:

    Slavery- "There is not a man living who wishes more than I do, to see a plan for the abolition of it." George Washington

    Race- "Be assured that no person living wishes more sincerely than I do, to see a complete refutation of the doubts I myself have entertained and expressed on the grade of understanding allotted them by nature, and to find that in this respect they are on par with ourselves....But whatever may be the degree of talent it is no measure of their rights. Because Sir Isaac Newton was superior to others in understanding, he was not therefore lord of the person or property of others." Thomas Jefferson

    Just some quotes of the Founders in this book.

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    I should also point out that one argument in favor of the "Elitist Founders" belief is the use of the word "men" instead of "people" in the Declaration.

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    Default Re: American Indian Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by RememberCuba94 View Post
    Well, we're not the ones that almost went extinct. True, we had the technology, but the Indian person makes a good point (if the person is telling the truth). We shouldn't be hypocritical about liberty and equality.
    "We" didn't go extinct.

    I have American Indian blood in my veins. Both of my Great Grandmothers were Indian women. One was Cherokee and the other was Blackfoot. Both married white men.

    I heard that when Lokie died they came from Oklahoma in a huge procession for her funeral in Kentucky. She was about 100 or 101 when she died. I remember her when I was a little boy of about 5 or so. I remember them both.

    Now... The Apache indians were ruthless. They didn't turn that way when they were attacked, they started attacking white people on their own.

    In fact the Cherokee, Blackfoot and several other tribes in the region of Ohio Valley, Kentucky, Tennessee and various regions were ambivalent to white people at first. Some of them joined with the British and some with "Americans" during the Revolutionary War, and again later in the War of 1812. They also fought in the French-Indian war.

    The indigenous population of the Americas certainly picked and chose sides based on what they would get out of it. In most cases treaties were broken as quickly as they were formed, by BOTH sides.

    So... history is history.

    Today, there are no slaves in America. No one is "oppressed" except by himself or the new Administration. And those that are oppressed these days are usually white people.
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    Default Re: American Indian Movement

    Remember this guy?



    He was involved with AIM.

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    Default Re: American Indian Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Donaldson View Post
    "We" didn't go extinct.

    I have American Indian blood in my veins. Both of my Great Grandmothers were Indian women. One was Cherokee and the other was Blackfoot. Both married white men.

    I heard that when Lokie died they came from Oklahoma in a huge procession for her funeral in Kentucky. She was about 100 or 101 when she died. I remember her when I was a little boy of about 5 or so. I remember them both.

    Now... The Apache indians were ruthless. They didn't turn that way when they were attacked, they started attacking white people on their own.

    In fact the Cherokee, Blackfoot and several other tribes in the region of Ohio Valley, Kentucky, Tennessee and various regions were ambivalent to white people at first. Some of them joined with the British and some with "Americans" during the Revolutionary War, and again later in the War of 1812. They also fought in the French-Indian war.

    The indigenous population of the Americas certainly picked and chose sides based on what they would get out of it. In most cases treaties were broken as quickly as they were formed, by BOTH sides.

    So... history is history.

    Today, there are no slaves in America. No one is "oppressed" except by himself or the new Administration. And those that are oppressed these days are usually white people.
    I know. I said "almost". Just stating one of the arguments these people use.

    That's a cool family history. Thanks for telling me more about the Indians. Any good reading you can recommend so that I can find out more?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RememberCuba94 View Post
    I know. I said "almost". Just stating one of the arguments these people use.

    That's a cool family history. Thanks for telling me more about the Indians. Any good reading you can recommend so that I can find out more?
    Not right off. I read a lot of books that contained only bits and pieces of history over the years. I can't point directly to a specific book these days on just the history of the American Indians.

    They say those who write history books are the winners of the wars, don't you know?
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