What is the Difference Between Socialism and Communism?

[RememberCuba94]

I've read some of the points of view of socialists now. Some of them say that socialism and communism aren't the same thing. Meanwhile, other socialists quote Marx, Engels, Trotsky, etc. So, what is the difference?

[American Patriot]

GENERALLY.....

Socialism is an economic system.

Communism is both an economic and political system.

And in this day and age, they are similar enough NOW to be pretty much the same when all is said and done.

However, Socialism asserts that capitalism - in all its forms, in particular owership of private property, private means of production must (MUST) be gotten rid of... which in turn leads to what is called "The Communist Ideal"... the perfect society.

In that case, none of us can make money, we can only work for the government.

If you haven't noticed the "Change" that took place, our current administration is a true Socialist. They want to grow the government so large that Socialism becomes the norm.

Eventually - we will, no, MUST do away with private ownership of companies, farms, private property and it will all belong to the government, and we will then be a "classless society" (according to Marx and Lenin) thus we will become Communist.

That's the "plan" while not stated outright by Obama, that's his goal.

He is failing at it too because we're all about to put a stop to him being President next election. A clear message was sent to DC two weeks ago... "Back the hell off, get out of our lives. We are kicking you out and sending new people in with orders to STOP what is happening."

Americans do not want either Socialism or Communism.

Those who do are un-American.

[RememberCuba94]

GENERALLY.....

Socialism is an economic system.

Communism is both an economic and political system.

And in this day and age, they are similar enough NOW to be pretty much the same when all is said and done.

However, Socialism asserts that capitalism - in all its forms, in particular owership of private property, private means of production must (MUST) be gotten rid of... which in turn leads to what is called "The Communist Ideal"... the perfect society.

In that case, none of us can make money, we can only work for the government.

If you haven't noticed the "Change" that took place, our current administration is a true Socialist. They want to grow the government so large that Socialism becomes the norm.

Eventually - we will, no, MUST do away with private ownership of companies, farms, private property and it will all belong to the government, and we will then be a "classless society" (according to Marx and Lenin) thus we will become Communist.

That's the "plan" while not stated outright by Obama, that's his goal.

He is failing at it too because we're all about to put a stop to him being President next election. A clear message was sent to DC two weeks ago... "Back the hell off, get out of our lives. We are kicking you out and sending new people in with orders to STOP what is happening."

Americans do not want either Socialism or Communism.

Those who do are un-American.

From what I've read, in theory, Socialism is the distribution of wealth, food, education, etc. through the community, not the government.
Here is some of the stuff I've read from the Socialist point of view:
http://www.worldsocialism.org/articl..._will_work.php
http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/ar...lenumber=10671

As you can read, these things, as the authors claim, seem too good to be true. My question is, are people really as good as these people claim them to be?
Another problem I have is about the way they portray human nature. The assumption is that human nature is inherently good, yet capitalism wasn't always around. In every event in human history, greed, power lust, ambition, and laziness played a part no matter what system of government. Whether it was a monarchy, oligarchy, tsardom, communism, or capitalism.
Plus, what about crime? You really can't expect everything to be great. These people are saying that socialism will remove all moral evils as well? The second link states that government corruption can be removed by giving the politicians worker's wages and by instituting elections. But, if everything is controlled by the government, wouldn't that be asinine? Couldn't he just control it to his favor while he was elected?

The whole "run by the community" thing doesn't seem to work either. In truth, people do care about themselves. Not just under capitalism. Plus, if people expect to be given free stuff, wouldn't they just end up being lazy? Socialism states this is solved by isolating the lazy ones from the community. Another thing I notice is that everyone has different ambitions. Some work harder than others. Eventually, the ones that work hard will have to carry the weight of the others. Then more lazy people to isolate. Eventually, there will be no one in that community. So, there will have to be forced labor. Which will probably lead to slavery. Which is why all socialist countries are controlled by the government.

Add some more weaknesses if I'm missing any. Tell me where I'm wrong.

[RememberCuba94]

http://www.worldsocialism.org/articl..._socialism.php
http://www.worldsocialism.org/articles/faq.php

Well, apparently, this is true socialism. Any thoughts?

[Toad]

For me, politics aside, socialisim and communisim are one of those ideas that look good on paper (to some) but just doesn't work out in reality because they go against human nature.

If I take the time to develop my skills and I study and work harder than "Joe", I feel I should be compensated better than Joe. Especially if I'm busting my butt and Joe is a lazy slacker. What incentive is there for me to WANT to be creative, to work hard, if the end result is the same as doing the minimum? It's disheartening to know you're working harder than everyone else and what you "earn" is being passed out to the lazy bums around you.

Socialisim and communisim are a roadblock to progress. They are a disincentive to innovation and hard work.

[American Patriot]

And yet they call themselves "Progressives" now, isn't that ironic?

[American Patriot]

Note that "Democratic Control" means very simply, "Majority rules".

Which we have been experiencing in detail for the past two years.

The people who were in the majority don't LISTEN to those in the minority.

This country is NOT a "Democracy" - it is a Representative Republic. People who say it is a "democracy" are lying. Yes, democracy is part and parcel of our way of life but the "other side" wants "Democracy" for their own purposes.

To suppress those they want to control.

[American Patriot]

A word of caution... it's great to read everything, including the site for the "World Socialist Movement"... however, you must be able to discern the difference in peoples' points of view.

[RememberCuba94]

I notice. If you read the World Socialist Movement, it seems quite different from what Obama is doing.

For instance, according to these people's view points, they say:
Socialism is only possible globally.
No government can exist.
No currency can exist.

I think the site explains it more than I do. One problem I had with you was the "democracy" thing? What about the rest of the people who won't get represented? Another thing the site says I'm not quite willing to believe is the human nature bit. If we're inherently good, why must we be taught to behave well as babies, yet we already know how to behave badly? It's not like you're taught how to lie or steal when you're a child. You already know how to do it.

Plus no one really knows if it actually will work in practice because such a system has never been put in place. It sounds too good to be true.

[zenbudda]

ANY social construct can succeed if everyone buys into it. period. we are all kidding ourselves if we don't global communism or global democracy, or global capitalism can't work. the fact is it CAN. BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! at what cost? to what gain?

i propose a challenge to this thread to list the COSTS and GAINS involved in communism, democratic socialism, and democratic capitalism.

i personally think of communism as an ant colony mentality. you have few people at the top that are serviced and taken care of. then a few other elite members that have certain tasks. everyone else (the mass majority of the population) has to literally die for the cause of the colony.

[RememberCuba94]

ANY social construct can succeed if everyone buys into it. period. we are all kidding ourselves if we don't global communism or global democracy, or global capitalism can't work. the fact is it CAN. BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! at what cost? to what gain?

i propose a challenge to this thread to list the COSTS and GAINS involved in communism, democratic socialism, and democratic capitalism.

i personally think of communism as an ant colony mentality. you have few people at the top that are serviced and taken care of. then a few other elite members that have certain tasks. everyone else (the mass majority of the population) has to literally die for the cause of the colony.

I listed problems with these theories in this thread. Mostly about human nature argument vs. human behavior argument and how utopian it all seems. I know the costs and gains. No private property. Majority representation. Sheer impossibility. The bright side is equality, crime disappearing, etc.

Gains of capitalism include innovation, creativity, private property, individuality, and freedom. Costs are inequality, possibilities of monopolies, etc.

Let's not even get to Communism. No way will I ever accept THAT monstrosity.

[American Patriot]

You think (or believe) or fell for the line that "crime would disappear"?



Criminals do what they do because they want to take from others that which they are too lazy to work for.

Think about it for a minute... suddenly the government is doling out our food based on our work.

The neighbor, he gets food too, but doesn't work cuz, basically, he's too lazy.

So you get more cuz you've got kids.

He decides to come over and take yours by force.

Of course, the government has banned guns too. So he uses a shovel....

whatever.

[RememberCuba94]

You think (or believe) or fell for the line that "crime would disappear"?



Criminals do what they do because they want to take from others that which they are too lazy to work for.

Think about it for a minute... suddenly the government is doling out our food based on our work.

The neighbor, he gets food too, but doesn't work cuz, basically, he's too lazy.

So you get more cuz you've got kids.

He decides to come over and take yours by force.

Of course, the government has banned guns too. So he uses a shovel....

whatever.

No, not really. I said that I am skeptical that human behavior is going to change after socialism even after a long period of time. Although, to these people, socialism doesn't exist unless there is no government anywhere. I get your point though. People commit crimes because of free will.

Their point, however, was the thievery and murder etc. would go away because of the abolition of private property and the abolition of borders. I really doubt it would happen. Really doubt it. Plus I don't really know that is going to happen because no such system has ever existed in human history. At the same time, you can't really blame capitalism for human nature. Capitalism hasn't always existed. And, again, if we're inherently good, why must we be taught to be good? And why do we already know how to do bad things like stealing, lying, etc.?

[zenbudda]

one could argue that the reason capitalism doesn't work for everyone is because not everyone follows the foundations of america (or possibly, even deeper, the foundations of judaeo-christian beliefs).

[American Patriot]

one could argue that the reason capitalism doesn't work for everyone is because not everyone follows the foundations of america (or possibly, even deeper, the foundations of judaeo-christian beliefs).

And one can argue that if one doesn't follow such precepts in the United States, one should move somewhere else because it doesn't matter what anyone thinks about their beliefs.

It is a firm established fact that this country is capitalist.

[zenbudda]

rick, what is the point behind your response to my statement? it "seems" like a retort, and not a "yeah i agree, and furthermore, if you don't like our country and way of life, get out..."

[American Patriot]

No, it's not a rude retort at all.

I'm merely pointing out that in the last few years it seems like those sorts of arguments have become the defacto standard of the left.

If I say that "We need to stop so many immigrants from coming into America illegally" the response is invariably, "Well you're just a racist."

Two completely different things were said there.

You're stating that a particular point of view is that "one could argue that the reason capitalism doesn't work for everyone is because not everyone follows the foundations of america (or possibly, even deeper, the foundations of judaeo-christian beliefs)."

That is simply one argument.

And the fact IS that indeed this country IS based on Judaeo-Christian beliefs and capitalism is indeed the economic standard of this country.

Those are just statements.

The idea that Capitalism doesn't work for others based on religious believes is actually rather silly.

Capitalism isn't based on religious beliefs at all.

The religion of a nation has little to do with it's ability to be economically sound.

Most countries are capitalistic, even Russia and China and Cuba. They still buy and sell items, they still own private property - but those abilities are more tightly controlled by the government.

In Cuba for example - from what I understand, if you want to buy something - you can, you just have to go through the government to be able to do so.

In Russia there most certainly IS Capitalism going on. Check out Ebay if you don't believe it.

China buys bonds for goodness sakes.

How are those countries different from us? I'm not sure their religious values are connected at all.

Russia tends to be Russian Orthodoxy (Christian).

China, in general is a pluralistic society - meaning they "loosely tolerated" any religion... except under the Communist regimes which now exist. They tend to frown on any religion, but the biggest one in China is Buddhism.

Cuba is most generally Catholic.

All three places have different religious structures and yet they all are hard core socialist with Communist governments. With a smattering of Capitalism thrown in for good measure.

So I ask you - how is it that religion is a foundation of economy?

[American Patriot]

I guess I should add something here.

Capitalism is actually based on individual freedoms. It does not take away freedoms.

Whereas other economic systems are based more on lack of freedoms.

Socialism specifically is an economic system that precludes personal, individual rights to owning private property.

Thus, to some extent you're correct in your statement - but the issue I take with the argument is that it is this very same sort of argument that is made AGAINST Capitalism by socials followers even in the US.

My issue is that if you live in America you should not be trying to follow Socialism as an economic system, and not by any means or method force ME to follow your way of thinking (not you personally Zen, the socialist way of thinking).

[RememberCuba94]

I guess I should add something here.

Capitalism is actually based on individual freedoms. It does not take away freedoms.

Whereas other economic systems are based more on lack of freedoms.

Socialism specifically is an economic system that precludes personal, individual rights to owning private property.

I agree. Which is why probably follow any form of socialism would be if God Himself ruled.

[zenbudda]

rick,

you asked:

So I ask you - how is it that religion is a foundation of economy?

and michael2 responded:

To reply using the philosophy of Bl. father Antonio Rosmini, 'Private Property' establishes an individual's physical and moral dominion over an object or objects. While that dominion isn't an absolute sovereignty, to deny private property is actually a denial of the individual at their very root. 'Capitalism' is the system by which this dominion is exercised as a free exchange of objects/goods. Considered in the abstract therefore, Capitalism really is the perfect economic system for human beings as they are. America is the society in which this system is the most realized to date, therefore America is the society in which human beings as human beings have been most able to advance civilization in the history of the world.

Our founding fathers set up a system based on judeo christian beliefs. including a system of trade and commerce based off biblical traditions.

http://www.giveshare.org/BibleLaw/lawhandbook/16.html

That was just a quick link I could scrounge up. But, from my understanding and research, Capitalism is NOT an "american" invention. Our forefathers just so happen to have made it successful for our society (i use the word successful lightly because people can and do disagree that capitalism has been successful). in my eyes it has been.

So why do you think that religion has nothing to do with American capitalism?