Illuminati debunking

[RememberCuba94]

What are good places where I can find debunkings of the infamous illuminati?

[zenbudda]

Look for Zeitgiest + debunked.

Here's my take (i'm no expert):

1. Free masons are a real organization.

2. A lot of our founding fathers were free masons

3. There is currently no steadfast connection between free masons and world domination

4. IF there are groups of people battling for control of the world, my guess would be that at least 1 of them would be a free mason, another would be a christian, another would be a jew, another would be a muslim, another would be an athiest or pagan....get the picture?

5. secret societies have existed for a LONG time. from my research, they usually stem from a group of scholars wanting to protect and preserve knowledge and culture.

6. the US 1 dollar bill DOES include a LOT of free masonry symbolism. whether or not the dollar was created by free masons is a whole other matter. my best guess is that whoever designed it wanted to leave behind the legacy of free masonry and the good things that culture has done for many societies.

7. IF the free masons do have world influence, then they are probably one of the few groups of people i would want to live in control under. look at it this way: if you had to choose 1 country to live in right now, or even 5 years ago, which one would it be? if free masons built this country, built "this system", it was pretty damn good if you ask me.

7. from my research, illuminati is more of a label that people place on groups/people to say "they are the source of our problems". one could probably argue that the word God is very similar. People need a "thing" to attach their ideas to in order to make sense of things: to talk about, debate, and organize ideas. the Illuminati are about as allusive as God.

[Toad]

Free Masons to me were/are this. Our great-great...... great grandfather's version of social/business networking.
My brother in law is a Mason, who, after 8-12 beers is happy to talk about what goes on behind closed door. Trust me. You don't want to sit through a Saturday night with a drunk Mason talking about meeting minutes, the next shriner event, fund raising, that hot little girl scout Den Mother, older Masons who just passed away, and community gossip. It's like a pre-modern era Facebook.

If you could be a fly on the wall at a Mason meeting, you would soon be a snoozing fly on the wall at a Mason meeting.

[American Patriot]

Actually, I think Toad has it precisely right. "Business networking".

In fact, almost every "secret society" is just that, a way to network. They just didn't call it that when the Masons started.

And the Masons aren't the "Illuminati". Everyone knows that's the Bilderberg group. (snicker).

[Luke]

Toad has a perfect grasp of modern day Masons. lol

[RememberCuba94]

Well, to be honest, I'm trying to just find intelligent debunkings of the various Illuminati myths.

My reasons?

1. I used to believe in it, and now the seeds of suspicion are slowly coming back.

2. A friend of mine believes in it because of stupid Alex Jones.

[vector7]

Conspiracy rabbit hole subjects can be hard to argue against and even tougher to win.

I know a few AJ fans too.

We've had discussions where his theories at times take control of reasoning.

We all have our own ideas of what we believe may or may not happen in the future.

Focus on the areas where you and your friend agree and keep an eye out for unfolding events to sort out the areas where you may disagree.

[American Patriot]

Some of us here were (and some apparently still are) Alex Jones followers.

On the other hand talking about debunking... I've actually been working a bit on a "book" of sorts about that sort of thing.

There's really three kinds of people when it comes to this stuff.

1) Believers
2) Debunkers
3) Skeptics

The difference from my point of view (and in my experience is pretty simple.

Skeptic is what you are. You're skeptical of the existence of, or anything surrounding the Illuminati because, well you have reason to be skeptical.

A believer is someone who is so inured into a belief system that he/she is utterly convinced of the existence of something he/she can not actually prove in a logical manner.

A debunker is the opposite, someone who is so completely UNBELIEVING in something that they will go to any length to make the believers sound like kooks and paranoids.

You certainly don't want to be a "debunker".

Now, those folks who debunk things are not necessarily "debunkers" but rather skeptics who take the time and effort to work to get to the bottom of a story. They are labeled debunkers, but honestly, this is not really an accurate designation for them.

Basically, what I am getting at here is stick to the objective point of view. You heard the story, you really aren't sure about it so instead of pursuing an answer to the story to prove it wrong, pursue the story to find as many facts as you can find (Both positive and negative) and weigh it ALL. Don't just weigh the facts that prove your side.

Once you have enough facts (pro and con) to objectively weigh the outcome, you can make a logical choice as to the veracity (truth) of the story.

Does this all make sense?

[vector7]

Some of us here were (and some apparently still are) Alex Jones followers.

If this was directed at me please allow me clarify "I am not an AJ fan".

I do know good people that are, but they are not aware of how he twists stories and events to keep him at the center of his news for ratings.

[American Patriot]

Was not directed at YOU Vector. (Or anyone in particular, it's just the way I talk, chill out).

[zenbudda]

Well, to be honest, I'm trying to just find intelligent debunkings of the various Illuminati myths.

My reasons?

1. I used to believe in it, and now the seeds of suspicion are slowly coming back.

2. A friend of mine believes in it because of stupid Alex Jones.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=zeitgeist+debunked

Scared of 2012 and planet X, Nibiru, etc etc? Go find ANY astronomy website (bautforum.com is one) and look up what is said about it.

[zenbudda]

Free Masons to me were/are this. Our great-great......<> great grandfather's version of social/business networking.
My brother in law is a Mason, who, after 8-12 beers is happy to talk about what goes on behind closed door. Trust me. You don't want to sit through a Saturday night with a drunk Mason talking about meeting minutes, the next shriner event, fund raising, that hot little girl scout Den Mother, older Masons who just passed away, and community gossip. It's like a pre-modern era Facebook.

If you could be a fly on the wall at a Mason meeting, you would soon be a snoozing fly on the wall at a Mason meeting.

I would extend what a freemason is by also including "a way of living life".


if you follow the rituals and stories (I only know up to a certain level) you'll see that they followed a code of living life. It's not a religion per se because you are allowed to be a mason AND practice a religion.

http://www.bradford.ac.uk/webofhiram...page=3Lec.html

I think Shriners are above the 33rd level of freemasonry. Take a quick look at their hat and you'll notice the all-so-familiar scimitar hover over a crecent moon with a star in the middle. yep, it's a MUSLIM symbol. but wait, we're supposed to hate muslims. I'm curious as to why all of the american born/bred "oil industry" people I talk to here in houston who have actually been to the middle east tell me a different story of what's going on over there than even Fox or MSNBC will show?

sorry to go off on so many tangents. but it seems this free outlet of information known as the internet has garbled a lot of simple facts.

[American Patriot]

It's not a religion per se because you are allowed to be a mason AND practice a religion.

If I recall correctly, Masons are encouraged to practice religion... no?

[Backstop]

Take a quick look at their hat and you'll notice the all-so-familiar scimitar hover over a crecent moon with a star in the middle. yep, it's a MUSLIM symbol. but wait, we're supposed to hate muslims. I'm curious as to why all of the american born/bred "oil industry" people I talk to here in houston who have actually been to the middle east tell me a different story of what's going on over there than even Fox or MSNBC will show?

sorry to go off on so many tangents. but it seems this free outlet of information known as the internet has garbled a lot of simple facts.

A new thread, with details and explanations about all those points above, would be interesting.

[American Patriot]

A new thread, with details and explanations about all those points above, would be interesting.

Agreed.

This one is about how to discuss "debunking" a particular subject.

Not the subject itself.

[zenbudda]

If I recall correctly, Masons are encouraged to practice religion... no?

i'm not certain that they are encouraged to practice a religion but i think they are encouraged to involve themselves spiritually while continuing to practice their beliefs.

[RememberCuba94]

Some of us here were (and some apparently still are) Alex Jones followers.

On the other hand talking about debunking... I've actually been working a bit on a "book" of sorts about that sort of thing.

There's really three kinds of people when it comes to this stuff.

1) Believers
2) Debunkers
3) Skeptics

The difference from my point of view (and in my experience is pretty simple.

Skeptic is what you are. You're skeptical of the existence of, or anything surrounding the Illuminati because, well you have reason to be skeptical.

A believer is someone who is so inured into a belief system that he/she is utterly convinced of the existence of something he/she can not actually prove in a logical manner.

A debunker is the opposite, someone who is so completely UNBELIEVING in something that they will go to any length to make the believers sound like kooks and paranoids.

You certainly don't want to be a "debunker".

Now, those folks who debunk things are not necessarily "debunkers" but rather skeptics who take the time and effort to work to get to the bottom of a story. They are labeled debunkers, but honestly, this is not really an accurate designation for them.

Basically, what I am getting at here is stick to the objective point of view. You heard the story, you really aren't sure about it so instead of pursuing an answer to the story to prove it wrong, pursue the story to find as many facts as you can find (Both positive and negative) and weigh it ALL. Don't just weigh the facts that prove your side.

Once you have enough facts (pro and con) to objectively weigh the outcome, you can make a logical choice as to the veracity (truth) of the story.

Does this all make sense?

The problem is I can't find any good evidence on the believers' part. I personally can't find evidence that the sci-fi obsession is really to get the public used to the idea of alien conquerors.

[American Patriot]

The problem is I can't find any good evidence on the believers' part. I personally can't find evidence that the sci-fi obsession is really to get the public used to the idea of alien conquerors.

The burden of proof lies upon the persons who make the accusations.

That is, if you have someone claiming "Rick is a Nazi", well, they have to show this accusation to be true based on their belief. They've got to have physical, written or photographic evidence that could be used as proof.

Then... the photos would need to be verified as accurate and not photo shopped.

The writing would have to be verified as mine with a date time stamp and proof of where it came from.

Otherwise, it is merely an accusation.

You can accuse anyone you want of anything you like, but unless you can prove it you would be treading on very dangerous legal grounds.... places where lawyers love to frolic.

[Toad]

i'm not certain that they are encouraged to practice a religion but i think they are encouraged to involve themselves spiritually while continuing to practice their beliefs.

It's my understanding that they must believe in a higher power, but there is no guideline on what. Simply no outright athiests.

Edit:
http://www.freemason.org/becomeMember/index.htm

"Membership is open to men age 18 and older who believe in a Supreme Being and meet the qualifications and standards. Men of all ethnic and religious backgrounds are welcome."

[American Patriot]

There was an 'Order of Illuminati' which was founded by Adam Weishaupt in 1776 and attempted to hijack freemasonry, but involutarily disbanded a few years latter.

It was a revolutionary organization committed to a kind of atheistic proto-communism well before it's time, a kind of early bolshevism that never got past the talking stage. Anything much more than those few points is pure speculation and not hard facts-which at any rate would be hard to prove...A truly successful secret revolutionary society dedicated to subversion would be almost impossible to uncover.

I disagree with your last sentence.

Ben Franklin is alleged to have once quipped, "Three men can keep a secret if two of them are dead." I don't know the precise context under which he made this statement but given his deep devotion to the New Republic I can only assume it was to folks like Jefferson or Washington in response to secret material associated with the new country being formed or the fighting in the Revolutionary War.

However.... conspirators are caught rather often. Criminals who commit a crime and get away with it, generally brag about it themselves later.

Having worked with the government for over thirty years I can assure you that there are secrets that affect the National Security of not only the United States but likely many of our allies that won't be divulged by anyone any time soon.

But a conspiracy such as an "Illuminati" type of set up that has been going on for perhaps centuries has no leg to stand on based SOLELY on the fact that people, in general are greedy and want results in their OWN LIFETIMES.

A father is not going to turn over to his son some secrets that would control the world without the permission of others involved in the group. Thus any man who is so involved and dying would have no legacy to pass on.

Another man might be barred or excommunicated from such a conspiracy should he be found not to meet the standards of those involved - and thus would have every reason to tell the world of the conspiracy, thus bringing such a thing to the light of reasonable people to examine.

Yet others might become disillusioned with such a conspiracy eventually realizing that within their own lifetimes the objective will never come to fruition. These people too, due perhaps to their own greed or jealousy that they would get nothing from it would eventually turn on the founders or the foundation and turn them in.

Seriously it isn't difficult to reason through this thing as not being a viable conspiracy simply because it can't have had legs for two hundred years without someone catching on somewhere. Unless they are all bazillionaires and anyone who "catches on" is somehow pulled into the fold of the organization and also made a bazillionaire.

The US Government couldn't keep such a conspiracy a secret long. Too many people inside it are completely bozos.