Roswell confirmed? (*likely old hoax*)

[American Patriot]

Hehehehe... Majestic-12, and the letters about Roswell... Con jobs.

[American Patriot]

Of course, you did not mention the other possibility that a document can be BOTH fake and from the Government-disinformation...

That's my take on the whole UFO thing-cooking up stories of LGB's to shroud real and very terrestrial secret programs, either for interests of national security and/or to hide a Foreign Power's dominance in their own secret program...And old Technology at that, dating from 1930's and 40's German secret projects.

And what you just said is utter nonsense.

The government didn't make up the document to cause disinformation.

This is a pretty typical "he said, she said" thing. It's pretty easy to accuse someone of being a "disinformation officer" for the US Government with neither proof or back up.

The actual documents (the MJ12 documents) were found in film form out side some guy's door. He either had them developed or they were already (I forget which, if you want to know the history, read the book by Friedman because he documents it reasonably well, but there are still questions about how they got there...) and he contacted the FBI if I remember right and told them about the find.

But not before he made copies of the material and hid it himself or passed it on to others. Just in case.

If there's a conspiracy there it's among the guy who kept the alleged classified documents and the other people who continued to pass the information back and forth.

Think about this for a moment.

if someone left something laying on your front porch and you had "no interest whatsoever" in whatever the material was about - and perhaps had no CLUE what it was about, wouldn't you simply throw it in the trash? (Perhaps not you, me or most folks here - but the MAJORITY of Americans are gonna just be pissed someone was littering their lawn or front porch.)

Personally, if someone leaves crap on my front porch I don't expect, I throw it in the garbage and don't even look to see what it is. I'm sure people might find that funny, but I don't take chances with opening things.

If I saw "Secret" on it, I'd do my job and secure the document and turn it over to the appropriate authorities. In my case, I have people to do that with and I'm cleared on enough levels to probably take a gander and not worry about debriefing. On the other hand, if I found something on MY porch I'd be damned dumb NOT to find out who put it there and WHY.

In the original finder's case, why would someone drop it on his doorstep?

That's part of the issue.

He was (if I remember rightly) a UFO hunter. So therefore, why him?

It's called "Conspiracy" and it's called "Fraud". Most LIKELY he made it up himself.

[American Patriot]

Leaving material in favor of an extraterrestrial origin for the Roswell Crash for a known proponent of 'Alien Origins' to find is not nonsense. On the contrary, it, or that the man was full of baloney and faked the documents himself, explains the facts quite neatly.

Hahahaha

Do you deny that Governments engage in deception efforts from time to time and that if they don't they should(from time to time, depending on the circumstances)?

Nope. Don't deny it at all. However, normally, governments tend to use such deceptive practices against other governments - not the people of the country in which they serve.

In particular the US doesn't routinely or even non-routinely "engage in deceptive practices" where it comes to things like UFOs. I have certainly seen the current administration engage in such practices where it comes to terrorist attacks in our own country though - and I'm listening to Obama doing it right now.

Then I guess the efforts to fool Hitler into believing Normandy was a diversion from a main Allied attack near Calais never happened either....

That's not about UFOs. That's about winning a war.

Given you interest in cold hard facts, logical empirical reality, which is MORE LIKELY in late 1940's America;

'Aliens' coming light years away in an advanced spacecraft to Earth, only to crash-land in the New Mexico desert and die,

or

American test pilots crashing a captured German experimental craft (or American craft based on German prototypes), due to a lack of experience dealing with the new technology involved and 'bugs' still in the German-made system that needed to be ironed out in order to perfect our use of these craft?

Obviously the latter. However, the war was well over by 1947. I'm not an expert on German and American aircraft of that era - however, I can promise you America was well ahead of the power curve on that by the end of the war anyway.

Testing spy planes is a possibility, and one crashing would have left NO debris (and certainly not a furrow in the ground that was attested to have been there after the alleged UFO hit the ground).

For the record, there wasn't any "new technology" in 1947 in the way of aircraft that might have been taken from the Germans.

I'm just saying that it would've been prudent when testing experimental craft to have a disinformational cover story available when civilians saw flights and even crashes of these craft...And a planted meme of extraterrestrial origins of these craft serves this purpose excellently. A civilian sees something strange in the skies has an implanted fear of ridicule if they report it, or jumps to the Alien idea, and both cover the actual origin of the program quite well.

Sure. However - if you're even familiar with the original story, military personnel were the people who "spilled the beans" after looking at the crash site.

Don't you THINK that if we had an aircraft crash it wouldn't have taken a farmer and a sheriff to alert them in the first place?

As to a "cover story" - look back at the previous image I think Peterle posted... that was the "Weather Balloon" that supposedly crashed. THAT was the "cover story".

So - I ask you... what could have crashed in the field without the military having had a clue originally?

Why would they concoct a "UFO" story before hand, say it was a UFO then downgrade the object to a helium filled weather balloon? And there were wittnesses who actually saw the materials (parts of the materials) that were on the ground, the bodies (which weren't human) and weren't likely to be Crash Test Dummies either.

[American Patriot]

yep makes sense, although i don't believe it is fake. i think it's part of a bigger document set that has declassified stamps on them.

Let's see about unmuddying the waters a bit.

Statement above can't be true. Here's why. EVERY DOCUMENT in a "doc8ument set" has a classification printed/stamped on them.

Thus, if this were a "part of a set" of something, then the memo would be stamped "SECRET" across the top and bottom.

maybe if you saw the context of the full set you could comment, the entire set is on the FBI site. there are some really interesting documents, one in particular they concluded that the UFOs were coming from Mars because the sightings increased when Mars was at its closest to Earth. They decided that because it would greatly reduce the travel distance between the planets during those time periods.

I've gone back a couple times and looked this over. The letter is likely a REAL, and unclassified document that was written up by the FBI. It has been basically done because Mr. X reported this to the FBI. He did so for his own reasons - and most LIKELY the information was not real to begin with.

Look at page 169 of this document http://vault.fbi.gov/UFO/UFO%20Part%2016%20of%2016/view

Afraid my eyes aren't as good as they used to be, especially not when reading stuff like this.

The last page though concludes that the flying saucers are from Mars.

I guess I have to ask, "Your point"? That was not the FBI saying this.

Also, if it is posted on the web from the FBI, wouldn't that be considered both legitimate and declassified?

No - as I stated before. Posted to the FBI "vault" doesn't make it legitimate. It might make it a "real document" they "found" or "created" - but that doesn't mean it is true.

edit : by legitimate I mean not a "faked" document posted by a nutjob or whatever. the document could be legitimately "untrue", but the source is the FBI.

This one posted originally by Mal I believe to be a real document, not faked. The STORY is faked, they took a report and dutifully wrote it all down. That's all, nothing more.

[American Patriot]

Well... MY whole gist here is that most of the documents are likely fake.

I misstated something here. The whole gist here is that the STORY is fake (not the documents).

Also, they weren't classified.

Posted on the FBI site or NOT doesn't give them credibility.

Doesn't give the STORY credibility.

The MJ-12 documents are there as well. There was at least one book I've read (mentioned above) about it that pushed hard that this stuff was "real" and it turns out to be BOGUS.

Same site, same subject. UFOs. The MJ-12 documents (which I am EXTREMELY FAMILIAR with by the way)... I have always believed them to be fake documents that someone created.

That site (the FBI Vault site) is the FIRST TIME I've had that confirmation.

I believe the FBI, I don't believe anyone else on the subject.

Not "Unclassified", not "declassified", not "classified" - but BOGUS. Completely, and totally bogus. Meaning someone with some knowledge of classified documents and how they were marked in the 1940s-1950s took the time and effort to forge them.

What credibility does that give to UFO hunters now?

Not a lot.

UFO hunters who "create stories" and "fake documents" in some effort to discredit the US Government are obviously themselves discredited.

[American Patriot]

Your point Peterle?

[American Patriot]

I bring your attention to what you said about 'foreign power' and 'war'. Perhaps for some, the War (wwii) never ended.

Pure speculation on your part, Michael.

Something happened at Roswell. I've visited there. I saw something that made me believe that something big, heavy and traveling VERY VERY fast hit the ground and then the ground was dug up and "put back" by large machinery. Basically, SOMETHING occurred there.

Now, what that was, I can only look at the historical records and guess at. A rancher saw something. Found the remains of humanoids, collected pieces of something and showed that stuff around town.

The military didn't show up for a few days. Not until it made it on the radio, and the Sheriff went out to check things for himself. Once he went, he called in the Air Force. Well, Army Air Corp at the time, since the Air Force didn't exist until November of 1947... anyway...

The Military THEN showed up and collected whatever was there, threatened people (well documented) and debriefed everyone - and along with the threats of jail time, or whatever the locals shut the hell up and pretty much stopped talking.

it was all over the news already though - and Ramey had already spilled the beans of a UFO.

There's a couple of famous telegrams out there too telling they found a UFO.

Peterle mentioned the German jet. All well and good, but the jet wasn't fighting... and furthermore I stated that "by the time Roswell happened" we were well in advance of whatever the Germans HAD. By 1947-1948 we were well past anything they had left when it came to air power.

So I don't care what they had in 1944.... it's not relevant to Roswell and 1947.

I was talking specifically about `1947.

Yeager broke the sound barrier in Oct 1947. That means we had jets flying already and were indeed probably testing something.

Roswell happened in July 1947. Two months prior to Yeager's sound barrier record.

Now.... in case anyone gets the idea that the X-1 was being flown over New Mexico (just sound of me in fact) change your mind. Roswell, New Mexico is a long way from Muroc Field in California.

Muroc Field is where Yeager was flying at the time.

Yeager's record wasn't announced until June 1948 or so.

Would seem to me if they were working on some kind of special aircraft it would have been flying out of Muroc Field at the time. Area 51 (Groom Lake) didn't exist yet to my knowledge, and even so, it's not a foregone conclusion they actually fly test planes out of there even today.

Nellis is the air base that is normally used and that's in Nevada which also is a pretty good distance from Roswell.

In 1947, the cold war was starting, the Germans were done for (as a military power). The Japanese and Italians had been slapped back a few years. The Soviet Empire was about to become a reality - The Soviet Union was established in 1922... however, it wasn't until after WWII that they became a superpower.

They were probably pretty scary to the USA in 1947 - but they were certainly not yet a nuclear power - they didn't detonate their first nuke until mid 1949. Two years after Roswell.

So -- Who in the world might we be talking about Michael? Which countries?

[samizdat]

Nellis is the air base that is normally used and that's in Nevada . And that's just where the city of 666 is. There you have it. 3 aliens w/ 2 feet each. That's 6. triple that or put a 1 in the middle, for 1 flying saucer= 666 or 616.

monkeys: n experimental jet crashed in Roswell.

[American Patriot]

Peterle, ok... that's what I thought you were getting at. I answered that already. Read back a bit and you will see my logic (though it's not all there it was just the time I had to write it up quickly).

Sami... I have to ask, do they burn a lot of drugs near you or something? Are you breathing in bad air again? /chuckles

[New Guy]

Let's see about unmuddying the waters a bit.

Statement above can't be true. Here's why. EVERY DOCUMENT in a "doc8ument set" has a classification printed/stamped on them.

Thus, if this were a "part of a set" of something, then the memo would be stamped "SECRET" across the top and bottom.



I've gone back a couple times and looked this over. The letter is likely a REAL, and unclassified document that was written up by the FBI. It has been basically done because Mr. X reported this to the FBI. He did so for his own reasons - and most LIKELY the information was not real to begin with.



Afraid my eyes aren't as good as they used to be, especially not when reading stuff like this.

The last page though concludes that the flying saucers are from Mars.

I guess I have to ask, "Your point"? That was not the FBI saying this.



No - as I stated before. Posted to the FBI "vault" doesn't make it legitimate. It might make it a "real document" they "found" or "created" - but that doesn't mean it is true.



This one posted originally by Mal I believe to be a real document, not faked. The STORY is faked, they took a report and dutifully wrote it all down. That's all, nothing more.

right, maybe i was saying this confusingly. The fact that it is on the FBI site means:
1. It is a real government document (legitimate)
2. Since it is online for everyone to see, it must not be classified or higher. ( unclassified)
3. The contents of the document may or may not be true.

I was talking about the document itself, not the contents.

[American Patriot]

Yeah, I figured that out. So was I. I misstated a few things. I was talking "documents" when I was really meaning "information".

[Phil Fiord]

That top image is also found at:

http://www.dominiosfantasticos.xpg.com.br/id253.htm

http://jerrypippin.com/UFO_Files_george_filer.htm

Its not going anywhere soon. It is out there.

[American Patriot]

The rancher and sheriff reported "bodies"... humanoid... not human.

Yeah, I know who he is. Why do you guys insist on asking me questions like that?

[Backstop]

http://popularmechanics.com/technology/avaition/ufo/area-51-was-the-roswell-ufo-really-a-soviet-hoax-5794200

Less nuttier an idea than most UFO stories out there, and causing quite a firestorm in the UFO cult of people who MUST believe in an Alien origin to these craft.

The saucer, she writes, was Russian-made and crewed by human children who were surgically altered to resemble aliens by Nazi death-camp doctor Joseph Mengele, acting at Joseph Stalin's behest.

If you're claiming that quote is less nuttier than the alien theory, I gotta disagree with you.

[American Patriot]

I could believe that a Soviet craft of some sort crashed here. An attempted launch of a satellite perhaps, and 10 years before they actually launched one.

Could have been a Soviet spy plane too. This being much more likely than a crashed rocket.

A crashed rocket/craft would have left no evidence of bodies.

There is no link for the Yahoo link you posted.

[American Patriot]

By the way the book that woman wrote....


most bullshit. LOTS of bullshit.

Anyone who refuses to use the official documents and instead goes for barroom tall tales is suspect.