My water conundrum

[Luke]

Of all the various things to think about for the last few days I have been considering 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen. What the hell is it? It can be liquid, solid and gas all in a short period of time. It is a major part of the human body. It is a major part of the Earth. Appearently it is a building block for life?

It seems to be able to store energy. Apply the correct amount of heat it changes form, it also changes form when cold is applied.

Maybe I should have taken high school chemistry?

Are there any other compounds with these properties?

How can something so simple be so complex?

[Backstop]

Seriously, get a Chem 101 book from a local school.

I had all that crap years ago, but really don't remember it - I never use it.

[Luke]

Good advice Backstop, I wonder if I can find the same info online? I will try basic chemistry?

Water, its what for dinner!

[Backstop]

I imagine it is online - don't know for sure though.

For study purposes, I always want a real book.

[Luke]

AARRGGHH!!! The water conundrum increases!!! Now I have to better understand physics? Will it never end? At least I am now certain that I may have skipped 6th period study hall one too many times!

[American Patriot]

AARRGGHH!!! The water conundrum increases!!! Now I have to better understand physics? Will it never end? At least I am now certain that I may have skipped 6th period study hall one too many times!

Actually, Luke, there is good and bad news. The bad news is "It never ends" the good news is... "It never ends". That is, learning and education.

Self taught people, for the most part, are in general smarter than those who spend immense amounts of time sitting in Liberal College Courses, with Liberal Teachers who teach Liberal Arts and Liberal Bullshit.

(I guess all this comes down to you're plain smarter if you're not a Liberal!)

There are FIVE states of matter (not three). Liquid, solid, vapor (or gas), plasma and something called a "superfluid".

Superfluid is a specific state of matter where when cooled to absolute zero the molecules have very strange quantum properties or effects. I don't know much about it, just what it is.

Very simply put, a state of matter is "how much heat the matter contains".

While Peterle was correct that the states are more physics than chemistry, this is not 100% accurate.

The fact that different atoms/molecules act differently at different temperatures is ALSO chemistry.

Some elements, iron for instance isn't a liquid until you add a LOT of heat to the tune of 1535 C. Water BOILS (becomes a vapor) at 100 C. But is a liquid at normal room temperature and freezes (turns SOLID) at 0 C (32 F).

But water is not an element. It's a compound. Since it is made up of oxygen and hydrogen, both of which are vapor at normal room temperature CHEMISTRY plays a very important part here.

once you combine elements into compounds (water is a compound because it contains two or more elements) then all of the physical properties change completely.

[Backstop]

Rick brought up a good point I'd like to re-emphasize:

Elements = listed on the Periodic Table.

Compounds = elements combined to make somethingorother.

[American Patriot]

the somthingorother (SOO: Atomic weight different) (LOL) is going to have different properties than the original elements too (which I think is what my point was supposed to be but I got lost somewhere writing that last post up there. haha)

[Luke]

I have heard of plasma and superfluids. I don't know what to call the plasma form of water.
I have been thinking about water from the perspective of early man. I "think" if I can understand the properties of water and how it operates, there could be a way to "harness" the energy that comes from the change of form. I am aware of how a steam engine works, but what if there was a way to gain power from melting ice?
The only way my ideas could be of benefit is if there can be more "power" generated than it takes to generate. I am not trying to be factious, the thought process tends to help with dealing with chronic pain. Wha.. wha,,poor, poor pitiful me.

[American Patriot]

One strange but interesting properties is "Superconductivity".

I am still waiting for industrial applications in large scale.

It means;you cool down metals (well i am not 100% sure,maybe carbon as well) to absolute zero > elecricity flows without resistance.

There is an almost industrial application: The Large Hadron Collider.

They must use superconductors to reach high energy.



Ehhh

I was making it simple.

I know you were making it simple

I used to teach electronics and some physics (pretty basic physics), with a smattering of chemistry involved.

Anyway, "superfluidity" IS superconductivity. Or at least related to it. When you chill down certain ceramics you create super magnets too.

[Luke]

Being a long time audiophile, I wonder if there has been any work on using superconductivity for use in loudspeaker development. The good folks at Bose come to mind as they are known for high quality sound from smaller packages.

[Luke]

Back to the basics question, heat and cold are determined by the speed atoms,protons, electrons and other small things move?

Steam is an expanding gaseous form of water.

Ice consists of H2O atoms moving slower than liquid water?

It takes some type of energy to convert frozen H2O molecules back to liquid. Any temp higher than "0"C. It seems the answer to the power usage comes in the process of conversion.

Honestly, last question of the day.....

[American Patriot]

I have heard of plasma and superfluids. I don't know what to call the plasma form of water.
I have been thinking about water from the perspective of early man. I "think" if I can understand the properties of water and how it operates, there could be a way to "harness" the energy that comes from the change of form. I am aware of how a steam engine works, but what if there was a way to gain power from melting ice?
The only way my ideas could be of benefit is if there can be more "power" generated than it takes to generate. I am not trying to be factious, the thought process tends to help with dealing with chronic pain. Wha.. wha,,poor, poor pitiful me.

You would call the "plasma form of water" "Plasma" /chuckles

I'm not sure they've ever converted water to plasma though.

Plasma generally is some material that has been converted from a solid (or gaseous form) into a plasma form. USUALLY it is what you see coming out of the back side of some rockets!

Essentially (and very simply), plasma is an "ionized gas" form of whatever matter is in a gas form.

There are "ion rockets" that exist now. They are the ones that will eventually take the first ships to distant stars....

[American Patriot]

Back to the basics question, heat and cold are determined by the speed atoms,protons, electrons and other small things move?

Kind of. Heat is determined mostly by energy absorbed by matter, increasing the "jiggle speed" of molecules, rather than individual particles.

Steam is an expanding gaseous form of water.

True.

Ice consists of H2O atoms moving slower than liquid water?

Yes, correct. Atoms, or technical molecules. Explanation: A molecule is a group of atoms, sometimes like types, and sometimes different types combined to form a compound. H2O is technically either called a compound or in the case of a single group of H2 + O a molecule.

(Another side note: when you weigh individual atoms, if you could, they have individual atomic weights. When you take molecules, compounds of molecules, you measure not in atomic weights but in something called molecular weight or molar weight, if I remember my chemistry right)

It takes some type of energy to convert frozen H2O molecules back to liquid. Any temp higher than "0"C. It seems the answer to the power usage comes in the process of conversion.

Yes it does.

Honestly, last question of the day.....

Earlier you mentioned something about using the energy from water to do something. Early man did that, they used FLOWING water to move things, to create mills to grind grain, to do many other jobs as well. Water wheels have been around for centuries I believe.

BUT if you're talking about the combination of H + O well, that's a bit more complex because the molecule is held together at an atomic level. Unlike an atom which requires a nuclear exchange to break up (slamming the nucleus with an electron beam for instance, which requires a VAST amount of power) or fission or fusion (which in and of themselves produce more energy, but require energy to perform) it's still not easy to use energy from say water.

Water CAN easily be broken by electricity, and the gases saved and used, but it requires energy to do this (electricity) and in so doing you use energy. Law of conservation of mass and energy says you can't get more out than you put in, and typically you have an "efficiency" rating on anything - I don't know what it would be for the conversion of water into it's constituent components (H2 and O) but I am sure that the energy you would get back (by recombining H2 and O into a powerful explosion) would NOT be as much as you put in to breaking it apart.

Is this where you're going with this?

[DarbyII]

AARRGGHH!!! The water conundrum increases!!! Now I have to better understand physics? Will it never end? At least I am now certain that I may have skipped 6th period study hall one too many times!

Luke,

Chemistry is physics. It's just a sub-category of physics. And the answer above was correct. The phase changes that water (and a lot of other substances) undergo when their temperature changes is chemistry. It's the electrons that store the energy and chemistry is all about the electrons.

Stick with the basics - basic chemistry. You don't need to jump right into quantum electrodynamics (QED) to understand the basics.

[DarbyII]

Of all the various things to think about for the last few days I have been considering 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen. What the hell is it? It can be liquid, solid and gas all in a short period of time. It is a major part of the human body. It is a major part of the Earth. Appearently it is a building block for life?

It seems to be able to store energy. Apply the correct amount of heat it changes form, it also changes form when cold is applied.

Maybe I should have taken high school chemistry?

Are there any other compounds with these properties?

How can something so simple be so complex?

You did make a very good observation in the post - water does have some "unusual" properties. Many but not all substances undergo phase changes like water. It can be a gas or a liquid. Gas and liquids can be thought of as being pretty much the same state - one has a higher energy level and is less dense than the other (gas). But when you freeze water there is a phase change. It goes from being a liquid to being a crystal. That one is not easy to fully explain through basic chemistry because it is a quantum effect.

Suffice it to say that it is the electrons that store the energy. If we look at the classical physics picture (which is not really correct but is sufficient for most purposes) think if it this way:

The electrons orbit the nucleus. How far away that orbit is depends on their velocity and mass. Energy is transferred to the electrons by photons and we know that mass and energy are equivalent. If they gain energy they gain mass. Because they are more massive and traveling a bit faster (angular orbital velocity) they have to jump to a higher orbit - just like a satellite or anything else that is in orbit. It is a basic conservation law - conservation of angular momentum in this case. That's how a water molecule stores energy. It loses energy by emitting a photon - and then the electron jumps down to a lower orbital, again conserving angular momentum.

The temperature of the water, aside from the stored electronic energy, is also a statement about the velocity of the water molecules themselves. Heat is all about kinetic energy. Apply a hot gas to a kettle full of water (on the stove burner). The kettle heats up. It's molecules absorb the heat and start wiggling around. They run into the water on the inside surface. When they crash into a water molecule they transfer their kinetic energy and send the water molecule off on a high speed "pursuit". The water starts to boil because all of these molecules are bumping into eachother and transferring their momentum around the pot - bottom layer up. After a few minutes all of the water has mixed, most of the water molecules have been heated by crashing into each other. Some of those molecules picked up so much velocity they jump right out of the kettle - steam (gas).

Turn off the fire. The kettle and water start losing energy. The top layer of water and the outside surface of the kettle are in contact with the air which is much cooler than the kettle-water system. The air molecules are now heated and fly away. The kettle-water system cools. It's the same process in reverse as heating the water. Momentum is transfered from the kettle-water system to the air molecules when they run into each other.

Another conservation law is demonstrated - conservation of energy. You took the energy from the flame, transferred it to the kettle which transferred it to the water and eventually transferred it to the air and some escaped as steam. Energy was absolutely conserved because none was created or destroyed - it was just transferred by a few "simple" chemical processes involving thermodynamics.

If you really, really heat up the water far beyond the boiling point and convert it all to steam - and continue to heat it up you'll eventually get the electrons so excited that they jump off the top orbital. When that happens the water molecule is atomized (hydrolized in the case of water). The hydrogen and oxygen go their seperate ways. Stand back when that happens. Water puts out fires. A gas that is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen is flammable. If it is in a contained vessel it is a very powerful explosive gas heated to just about the point when it will flame. Big-badda-boom. Ask the Russians. At Chernobyl they had a BLEVE (Boiling Liquid, Expanding Vapor, Explosion) when the cooling water was heated to over 1000 degrees in the containment vessel.

[American Patriot]

About time Darby wandered into the room.

/chuckles

[DarbyII]

About time Darby wandered into the room.

/chuckles

Thanks, Rick.

I lurk and read the posts but haven't posted very often even though I've had an account for almost 6 years.

Heck - I had to have somewher to post. AN has been completely off-line for two weeks. Olav has it back up but the graphics on the forum are still whacked.

[American Patriot]

I finally wrote Olav a couple days back. He said something about it being a power glitch or something, and that's the last I heard.

[Luke]

To add more clutter to my scrambled cranium, which has more "weight"? Equal amounts of ie: 1 gal of water, or 1 gal of ice? Currently waiting for test results.